Tank "nerfs"

[Chicks]

@chicks

all u say is 1vs1 directed, but whe all know those nerfs are all for mass pvp.

and btw where did u see pure tank in stack server?
tank here are most archer, mage, bishop or some dagger: so i dont get the point to make something to pure tank where its 0.01% of char ingame...

PS: avant que tu leave tu pleurais deja avec les meme arguments, change de char ca ira mieu....

Drake said himself he wanted to encourage pure tank setup, thus why I argument that way. If you'd actually read the thread you critic, you'd know it.

And all I say is not 1v1 oriented... Mass agro, vengeance, deflect arrow, all those spells will have a strong (or not, currently) impact in both mass pvp and 1v1. It's just easier to grasp the issue in a 1v1 then in a mass pvp where multiple parameters come into play...

Let me just traduce for the others who don't understand french : "Before you left, you where already crying with the same argument. Change char, it's gonna be better".

It's not really an argument, but Okay. "stop trying to fix things that are broken" would be a good way to sum it up. Why do you think no one go pure tank? It's maybe the reason why drake want to push the pure tank setup more? For my part, I play tank because I like it's meta. The nerf kinda freaks it up, which is not nice for any tank players. It just affect archer/tanks more. All other nerfs to tanks are there for a reason and are not affecting tanks at all/much. Deflect arrow, however, have a strong effect. If you think I "cry" for myself, your dumber then you look and so far you don't come out as being super smart. Anyway, I'll make my TK/ES anyway, thanks for your concern on my welfare.

[=drake=]

Tank/summoner? Kill the summon/move away from UD. GG.
Tank/healer? well it's long, but they don't hit that hard.
Others? Well they are focused class, so it enter into the rock/paper/scissor logic.

What exactly should tank sub to right now? Tank/archers? Nerfed. Tank/mage? Nerfed. Tank/dagger? (dunno if it's nerfed, I guess yes or it will be?).

You are talking about a skill, Deflect Arrow, that is used against 1 single specific target: archer.
Tank/Archer, without deflect arrow, what nerfs have against... a mage? zero. a healer? zero. a dagger? zero. and so on...
Tank/Mage what amazing nerfs gets against anything that is not archer? Zero.
Tank/Dagger? same as the first two.

So, the Deflect Arrow nerf is simply required to make your same statement work: rock/paper/scissor logic

without this deflect arrow thing the rock-paper-scissor would not work at all for tank/archer, tank/mage, tank/dagger and basically the main counter for them would be only themselves (tank/archer vs tank/archer). That's not really rockpaperscissor at all...

[Clonage]

Im not going to care more cuz it's pointless. Like it's fycking uber OP to let full tank have 600 range on bow. Keep it as you want, im sick and tired of this bullshit.
Cya somewhere else.

[loXol]

Im not going to care more cuz it's pointless. Like it's fycking uber OP to let full tank have 600 range on bow. Keep it as you want, im sick and tired of this bullshit.
Cya somewhere else.

seems someone need to pown with bow in pal/pp...

[LadyZENITH]

You are talking about a skill, Deflect Arrow, that is used against 1 single specific target: archer.
Tank/Archer, without deflect arrow, what nerfs have against... a mage? zero. a healer? zero. a dagger? zero. and so on...
Tank/Mage what amazing nerfs gets against anything that is not archer? Zero.
Tank/Dagger? same as the first two.

So, the Deflect Arrow nerf is simply required to make your same statement work: rock/paper/scissor logic

without this deflect arrow thing the rock-paper-scissor would not work at all for tank/archer, tank/mage, tank/dagger and basically the main counter for them would be only themselves (tank/archer vs tank/archer). That's not really rockpaperscissor at all...

Not that simple. Tank/mage?  Zero? How about both mdef masteries which are no more? Or if it is thank/propher how about dual-heavy masteries?

I for example play sps/sws like I did bac in C4 on infi and now my char got nerfed in 3 major points.

- Deflect arrow is useless cause you cast slower in it. Enough to never make it viable option, archer or not.
- Mdef masteries no longer stack, superior mdef gone.
- sleep got nerfed.

Now, this char was never OP. It was good, most of the people still preferes sps/ee or sps/es. Now... what those chars have nerfed now. Nothing really. They are still the same strong, and sps/ee even has the trance which gives it the ancient sleep advantage over other classes. This is not a QQ message, but just a statement how I see things. That your nerfs did adress some OP combos, but also nerfed chars that were not OP and that I'm not a tank. subbing anything with tank now is a daring choice when you can sub it with summoner which will give you simply more power and double HP and no drawbacks at all. That applies for both mages and dighters of all classes. None will make tanks, I know no tanks in the game and that is between... +- 50 players. Deflect arrow is not gamebreaker even unnerfed. Robed without TP still die on 2 crits from archers, and heavy-equipped tanks are there to be resilient dammit, that is their purpose. Now they are kinda not so none plays them.

[Chicks]

You are talking about a skill, Deflect Arrow, that is used against 1 single specific target: archer.
Tank/Archer, without deflect arrow, what nerfs have against... a mage? zero. a healer? zero. a dagger? zero. and so on...
Tank/Mage what amazing nerfs gets against anything that is not archer? Zero.
Tank/Dagger? same as the first two.

So, the Deflect Arrow nerf is simply required to make your same statement work: rock/paper/scissor logic

without this deflect arrow thing the rock-paper-scissor would not work at all for tank/archer, tank/mage, tank/dagger and basically the main counter for them would be only themselves (tank/archer vs tank/archer). That's not really rockpaperscissor at all...

Wall of text, but please read it drake. I think it explains most of our concern relatively clearly.

Deflect arrow is the rock-paper-scissor core element of all tank subs? Remove it and everything fail... Interesting...

Mages can kill tanks pretty fast too... Daggers too... Basically deflect arrow is only good vs ... archers... as you stated yourself... So... I don't see why deflect arrow is supposed to be the angular rock of the tank class...

Sincerely, I see no point in a nerf up to that extend. Nerfing mage subs + pure tank just because what... archer/tank is too op? I said it and I'll hammer it some more, because I don't think it quite sink in... Because that's the issue you told us about here right? Or did I understood it wrong? You want to nerf archer/tank right?

Because from what I recall, archer/tank owned most mage/tank, even before the nerf... So I don't get why we have to nerf every tank sub AND the base class, just to "balance" 1 op class.

Let me just get this right one more time. If you're a mage tank vs an archer tank... the archer tank actually has even more advantage than before, as the mage/tank cannot use his deflect arrow without a major disadvantage.... But you told us that archer/tank is the problem... So you're nerfing every class/tank who fight vs archers, because archer/tanks owned all other archers sub? INTERESTING! Exception : Archer/tank(bd and sws included) vs Archer/something, mostly summoners.

Sooo because 1 major part of the population couldn't play against 1 other important and specific class type, we nerf... every other possible tank sub...

Dagger/tank vs archers/wtvr = nerfed.
Mage/tank vs archer/wtvr = nerfed.
tank/tank (pure tank, what ever the sub that doesn't alter the play style) vs archer/wtvr = nerfed.

Any. Single. Tank, subbed or not, is nerfed against archers now, what ever the sub. So how is this is supposed to be a fix to the OP tank/archer problem? Please drake, understand I don't mean to be insulting or wtvr, but for the love of god this idea is beyond retarded. It only drag the tank class even lower. It encourage nothing, achieve nothing and fail to fix the issue you wanted to fix. This "fix", actually, is more breaking to the rock/paper/scissor logic than simply removing it, as tank/archers is the only tank sub that can compete with an archer/wtvr now and since no archer/tank will activate deflect arrow vs someone without a bow (aka an archer), it doesn't nerfs the OP class against anything but archer/summoner. (or archer/dagger, or archer healer, or archer nuker. I won't develop more on why I didn't include those classes to the discussion, I think it's fairly self explanatory)

So to summarize, I get that you want to nerf a class that is OP. If pure tank classes need to be nerfed for that? Well I guess so be it. It is unfair and you won't see pure tank sub as you claimed you wanted, but it's the price to pay right? But don't nerf every classes that sub to a tank just because 1 combo is op... As someone said : change bow range to almost nothing. It fixes everything for pure tank, mage/tank, dagger/tank and your dreaded archer/tank. At least try it.

[=drake=]

- Deflect arrow is useless cause you cast slower in it. Enough to never make it viable option, archer or not.
- Mdef masteries no longer stack, superior mdef gone.
- sleep got nerfed.

- Deflect Arrow is a toggle and you use it against archers only. Against everyone else? nonsense.
- Mdef masteries (like Pdef masteries and Patk masteries) dont stack since 2005 in DNET... 9 years is plenty to get used to it.
- Sleep untouched, see changelog.

[=drake=]

Dagger/tank vs archers/wtvr = nerfed.
Mage/tank vs archer/wtvr = nerfed.
tank/tank (pure tank, what ever the sub that doesn't alter the play style) vs archer/wtvr = nerfed.

Dagger/Tank are the strongest and hardest dagger to kill in the game. This is well known.
Once a Dagger equips correctly he becomes extremely deadly so you get the most dangerous DPS class combined with the most tanky class (THE tank).
With the Deflect Arrow nerf they have two choices: a go tank mode and lose dps or dont activate it and get full damage from archers but keep full dps. This simply allows the rock-paper-scissor to work so Archers/whatever, in the fighters, is the straight enemy of Dagger/Tank. VS other classes instead the Dagger/Tank have the upper hand many times.

Mage/Tank is the most unkillable mage of the game. Again same concept DPS+Tank. This way they COULD be killed by Archer/Whatever. As archer was ALWAYS the nemesis of every mage and this way, to some extent, it remains. (even if the damage mitigated by a mage/tank is way much more than a normal mage. You cant argue on that!). VS all other classes Mage/Tank have many times the upper hand.

Archer/Tank. Same concept of previous two. This way makes sense to have a Archer/somethingelse. In the past everyone was doing purely Archer/Tank (if they knew the old mechanics, of course) because it was simply THE best for both defence and dps. Now is not and when you are Archer you have many options and none is "the best".
examples:
Archer/Tank: higher tankiness than any other archer. Good DPS (as archer) against any other class. When fighting against other archers can trade dps range for extra defence.
Archer/whateverelse: probably much less tankiness than archer/tank. Good DPS but probably higher if well combined with passive or buffs (Archer/Dagger, Archer/WL, Archer/Buffer).
You see? By default the Archer/Tank is more tanky than other archers. Without this single nerf Archer/Tank would top out any damage output from other Archer/whatever thanks to deflect arrow without any penality and the mitigation is of 40% (stacked over other mitigations thanks to tank already). Hardly another Archer/Whatever can deal so easily (1 button press) 40% more damage to balance out the two classes! It would have been a no brainer to make always Archer/Tank when you do archer.

Tank/Tank vs Archer... is nerfed when the tank have a bow in hand or a dagger in hand. True. I dont love it that much either and thats why the effect became first a 2min buff (instead of 20min, that would have been impossible to manage) and now is even easier to manage: a toggle.
You wanna blow away an archer with HIS favorite weapon while your char have zero knowledge in it? You are welcome do to it but disable Deflect Arrow if you want your full range else stick to a melee weapon.

Others/Tank vs Whatever? Zero issues. They have no drawbacks at all if played in Heavy Armor. Warlord/Tank for example, that in past was totally underrated class, now is absolutely viable (but still underrated because of players' lack of knowledge) as there are no "OMFG" best whatever/tank combos.

The choices of the nerfs was based over 2008-2013 experience. I dont think i have to even post graphs about demography of -active- players at that time. Who played should remember that there was two ways only to top everyone: something/Tank (pvp) or Orc (oly and pve bosses). Anything else? walking meat.


[/quote]
So to summarize, I get that you want to nerf a class that is OP. If pure tank classes need to be nerfed for that? Well I guess so be it. It is unfair and you won't see pure tank sub as you claimed you wanted, but it's the price to pay right? But don't nerf every classes that sub to a tank just because 1 combo is op... As someone said : change bow range to almost nothing. It fixes everything for pure tank, mage/tank, dagger/tank and your dreaded archer/tank. At least try it.
[/quote]

Is already big the change from 2min to toggle for the skill. I really wanna avoid make server become TarantulaBetatestServer with skills changing every week. It makes instability for the players and is extremely dangerous for a low rate server so thats why i'm overly cautious about such changes as i had plently of experience about this in the past.
The changelog was well exposed at beginning, there was no "secret nerfs" or whatever.

When you talk about Archer/Tank and "lets remove the nerf", you should first of all think:
WHAT other Archer/whatever is viable right now? right now many choices from Archer/PP to Archer/Summoner or even Archer/WL or Archer/Dagger (best unbuffed critical rate/damage archer of the game)
Archer/Tank have still some good points over other Archer/whatever? Yes they do. Various defensive boons that Archer/Tank still fully have like UD/Majesty/Heavy Armor/maybeheals/etc...
DO right now Archer/Whatever win against Archer/tank and do the inverse can happen too? Yes. They null out more or less on defence vs dps.
WHAT would change for Archer/whatever by in fact boosting Archer/tank against all those combos? Sum of damage mitigated + damage dealt by the Archer/Tank would be by far superior than the sum of the damage dealt + damage mitigated by the archer/whatever.
Result? Making automatically Archer/Tank the best class of choice between Archer/something. You know the consequences here....

[Garn.]

Why i have a feeling that GMs didnt play this game for years and their knowledge about pvp on stacksub servers comes only from old DN aka one of most unbalanced servers ever?

sarcasm/flame off, do not continue! 

why do i have the same feeling? 

[Peorexo]

Once a Dagger equips correctly he becomes extremely deadly so you get the most dangerous DPS class combined with the most tanky class (THE tank).
With the Deflect Arrow nerf they have two choices: a go tank mode and lose dps or dont activate it and get full damage from archers but keep full dps. This simply allows the rock-paper-scissor to work so Archers/whatever, in the fighters, is the straight enemy of Dagger/Tank. VS other classes instead the Dagger/Tank have the upper hand many times.

fix shots first or ur imaginations of dagger actually killing someone will never happen.
http://boards.lineage2.com/archive/index.php/t-154445.html
here u go 2007y thread with saying "dagger got ONLY *2 shots bonus"
and then tell me about ur official files once again.
Becouse hitting full buffed mage on shock blast (-30% pdef) with focus power + focus attack + vicious stance in back for 1000, isnt rly strong (counting on mj robe set+3 mage with proper buff againts fighters)

[sm0g]

Back in 2005 ,c4 era i had a SR/TK and PR/PS. Masteries were stacking at first,but then you nerfed them. And guess what: PR/PS was still 111% better than SR/TK in any aspect. DPS(ok,its PR),Survivability(TP> UD, even in heavy with 'normal' deflect arrow TP+light armor still beats the heavy user tank/archer since tank means shield and skills for it, not heavy armor+deflect!)

[Chicks]

Back in 2005 ,c4 era i had a SR/TK and PR/PS. Masteries were stacking at first,but then you nerfed them. And guess what: PR/PS was still 111% better than SR/TK in any aspect. DPS(ok,its PR),Survivability(TP> UD, even in heavy with 'normal' deflect arrow TP still beats the heavy user tank/archer since tank means shield,not heavy armor!)

^this. All of this.