Give tyrant some other boost. Yea it got some QoL in stage 1 and 2, but in stage 3 its still lacking behind. Problem is about closing the gap and in IL there is no way to catch anyone in bigger areas
1*) rabbit gives a big drawback and once you close the gap you gotta change totem (takes time while you are already almost down while closing the gap)
2) skills got 600 range (iirc) while the classes everyone talks about here (mages vs archers) have 900+ and can easily kite them
3) glad can sub to HE to compensate range disadvantage, also has a dash
4)daggers get a gap closer, shadow step, when they already have dash, and it also cancels the target and teleports you to back to insta backstab lol
5) only viable sub for tyrant is wc/ol, but it only gets soul cry from them (destro is useless, and for the good)
6) you barely see any melee party in interlude, none actually (stigma from SE only to help bd/se + spoil farm lol)
7) yes you can *root* players so tyrants and other melees can catch up, but i wonder how its gonna work now that we have wisdom in all stages. In stage 3 it barely lands iirc
*usually meta dyes for tyrant are +str +con -dex, but you are already slow as hell, in higher chronicles you get rabbit without drawback and rush (though rush would be op in interlude, unless it had like 1min reuse)
Would be great to discuss until its not too late to test in obt.
Cheers
In stacksub interlude close range fighters are sadly underwhelming, they are working much better in clean interlude or stacksub in higher chronicles. Their skill sets (or interlude settings in general) are just not good enough to counter mage or archer stack combos.
Glad is great at increasing Th/He's pvp power but as a MELEE fighter there is no rly good sub to choose from: shorter cds/lower mp consumption and dash from he or ai from pal are not good enough to make glad viable in mass pvps.
Tyrant's skill set is much better than glad's (totems >>> detects? pff, zealot, slow, stuns without changing weapons, fist fury, break duress) but it still suffers from the same problem - no good sub. OL gives only soul cry/soul guard (freak destros).
Glad/PP or Tyr/OL or very strong oly characters and boosting them in some way to make them viable in mass pvps will also make them much stronger in oly and thats a big thing.
Mages/archers/daggers have a lot of options to choose from - mages: summoners for better dmg AND defence, tanks for defence against archers, he: wl/glad for better stats and great dmg boost, daggers: tanks, sr/pr has nice sws/bd sub, pr has aw and ps etc etc.
Glad and tyrant are melee classes that heavly focus on burst combos to kill a single target (which consumes forces and then makes them unable to do anything for x seconds before they get forces back) or aoe skill spam to pressure multiple targets at once (which consumes a lot of mana) BUT best targets for them aka mages most of the time go for summoner or tank (ONLY tss and hurricane assault bypass shield) sub which makes them a lot of harder to kill.
So here are my propositions:
- add Maximum Focus Sonic/Maximum Focus Force skills so they can restore forces quickly (still affects oly...)
- increase max forces to 8? (no idea if it will have any effect in interlude but still affects oly...)
- make sonic move not consume forces (still requires them)
- remove -p.attack from rabbit totem
- increase pvp skill dmg? (still affects oly...)
- make all glad/tyrant skills ignore shield? (still affects oly...)
- make AI attack speed bonus work with duals?
- increase effect of Clarity on physical skills so they wont go to 0 mana in seconds when aoeing
Imho its not worth balancing around oly as they are already s-tier classes for that anyway. And oly is a niche pvp situation.
Problem is to start bursting since you cant catch anyone.
Zaelot is rly situational, when you use it you are already almost dead (unless pre-use it, which lets agree is not often possible).
Break durres only works on either magic root or physical root from tanks/bards iirc (cant remember which one)
Stun barely lands (at least on IL setups ive played), and for that you need to get close, once again, a problem
While tyrant has better skillset, glad has better options to sub for (pp for oly or he for pvp)
I would agree on rabbit totem change and insta max force skill (and maybe ogre to remove speed penalty)
Skill damage is good and shouldnt be changed i guess. Damage wise they are strong indeed
AI working with duals would be interesting, since you are already sacrificing shield defence
Cheers
Glad/Th solves your gap closer problem.
For Tyrant and Dwarfs you should add shadowstep.
Problem solved. Ez
Quote from: HumpDeBump on October 07, 2021, 01:45:18 PM
Imho its not worth balancing around oly as they are already s-tier classes for that anyway. And oly is a niche pvp situation.
Problem is to start bursting since you cant catch anyone.
Zaelot is rly situational, when you use it you are already almost dead (unless pre-use it, which lets agree is not often possible).
Break durres only works on either magic root or physical root from tanks/bards iirc (cant remember which one)
Stun barely lands (at least on IL setups ive played), and for that you need to get close, once again, a problem
While tyrant has better skillset, glad has better options to sub for (pp for oly or he for pvp)
I would agree on rabbit totem change and insta max force skill (and maybe ogre to remove speed penalty)
Skill damage is good and shouldnt be changed i guess. Damage wise they are strong indeed
AI working with duals would be interesting, since you are already sacrificing shield defence
Cheers
Good suggestions in my opinion, I would push these forward.
I would also add something to destro, you don't even see this class other than RBs. I think rush would be a fair skill to add, with proper testing to determine a reuse time. It could also have restriction to work only with destroyer type weapons if community thinks it would give too much advantage to ty subs.
Also, since we play this game for so long and figured ways to make destroyers a killing machine by doing trains, this class suffered big time nerf by removing pole mastery. I think the fact that totems/frenzy don't work together is fair and subbing to ty is almost like a retail destro with a few advantages over a retail. I think the pole masteries should be re-introduced and instead tweak the frenzy/guts bonus with polearms to find a proper balance.
Quote from: plavix on October 07, 2021, 01:54:55 PM
Glad/Th solves your gap closer problem.
For Dwarfs you should add shadowstep.
Problem solved. Ez
I think everyone knows my opinion... I think if they can sub to any class it would help that situation. I don't think its will generate any OP sub as dwarves basicly have a big HP pool.
Destros are still OP even with all the nerfs.
I dont understand what game you guys are playing since you want to give them rush impact
How would your ass feel about a destro with skills up 1 shot you with rush impact?
Cmon guys, think before you make dumb suggestions...
Quote from: Vexim on October 07, 2021, 12:51:31 PM
- add Maximum Focus Sonic/Maximum Focus Force skills so they can restore forces quickly (still affects oly...) - could agree
- increase max forces to 8? (no idea if it will have any effect in interlude but still affects oly...) - too much, adding 1 extra force also increases the skill dmg on max forces, don't think its needed
- make sonic move not consume forces (still requires them) - If maximum focus sonic is implemented, don't think this is needed
- remove -p.attack from rabbit totem - could agree, I would even swap evasion with atk speed so its +speed + atk speed
- increase pvp skill dmg? (still affects oly...) - Unfortunatly cant change pvp skill dmg without boosting dagger dmg too which I dont think would be reasonable
- make all glad/tyrant skills ignore shield? (still affects oly...) - If possible to do, I agree this could help
- make AI attack speed bonus work with duals? - Think this is ok
- increase effect of Clarity on physical skills so they wont go to 0 mana in seconds when aoeing - This would affect all other melee chars like dagger/warlords and I dont think its a good idea, specially now that mana burn has been nerfed
Just relax and don't insult people. It's opinions.
Quote from: plavix on October 07, 2021, 02:15:22 PM
Destros are still OP even with all the nerfs.
In 1v1 pve situation yes. They are also OP on retail in pve. WL is far better and OP for trains and you can argue that this is the class's essence. So in the end, removing the pole mastery did not entirely solved the issue and it also brought it backwards.
Quote from: plavix on October 07, 2021, 02:15:22 PM
I dont understand what game you guys are playing since you want to give them rush impact
How would your ass feel about a destro with skills up 1 shot you with rush ?
It's not old days interlude anymore with bison/frenzy/zealot stacking and fist fury working with any weapons. You will not get 1 shot from a destro with proper buffs and rush impact can easily be tuned to have good balance in reuse time. Frenzy is also tricky to activate, unless you do it before the rush comes but then its time limited by the time enemies come/you get in range, there is propably 30sec gone already.
You don't seem concerned by the fact that daggers have shadow step and can stab. Why so much hatred toward rush impact.
Quote from: +GekKey+ on October 07, 2021, 02:30:19 PM
Just relax and don't insult people. It's opinions.
In pve situation yes. They are also OP on retail in pve.
It's not old days interlude anymore with bison/frenzy/zealot stacking and fist fury working with any weapons. You will not get 1 shot from a destro with proper buffs and rush impact can easily be tuned to have good balance in reuse time. Frenzy is also tricky to activate, unless you do it before the rush comes but then its time limited by the time enemies come/you get in range, there is propably 30sec gone already.
You don't seem concerned by the fact that daggers have shadow step and can stab. Why so much hatred toward rush impact.
opinion (noun):
a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
There are grounds sufficient to produce complete certainty that Destros are already usefull, as seen on previous server. Its not a class designed for open space PvP, as are many others, but still play a role in the game.
If you want to have an opinion on this design choice, be my guest, but that would fundamentally change the game and the chronicle you are deliberately playing on, for a class that is already used by a big number of players.
PS: When I call you dumb, that's an opinion.
Quote from: plavix on October 07, 2021, 02:38:45 PM
There are grounds sufficient to produce complete certainty that Destros are already usefull, as seen on previous server. Its not a class designed for open space PvP, as are many others, but still play a role in the game.
Destro will always have a role in the game, just like any chars. However at this point Destro is only usefull for 1v1 pve. I know its not designed for open space PvP but I am not trying to replicated a kamael that just moves quickly to any target and drop them. But the fact remains, when you see a desrto in a pvp, its because someone is using it as an alt to kill the boss faster.
Quote from: plavix on October 07, 2021, 02:38:45 PM
If you want to have an opinion on this design choice, be my guest, but that would fundamentally change the game and the chronicle you are deliberately playing on, for a class that is already used by a big number of players.
So you want it be fair and square in regards to skill given to classes? It is fundamentally changed it by allowing stacksubs. I don't think adding that skill would have such a huge impact. There is also the possibility of adding a speed boost on a skill, kind of like blinding blow.
Truth of the matter is, most people HATE destroyers and to be honest with you, if it was up to them, the class would actually be deleted, not only "not giving rush". Destro still has its place in every part of the game, be it in train farm (you can still farm with pole even with the mastery removed, you simply can go to fog at lvl 60 now as you could before), be it in RB killings, be it in PVP. There is absolutly no reason to buff a class that completly ruins the game experience for everyone else. You might be the 1% that would like to see more destros around but thats just it, you are the 1%, there are probably like max 5 guys like you in this community.
Lets all just stop for a second and keep on topic. This was about tyrant and gladiator, lets PLEASE stop talking about destros and dwarfs as this topic has been adressed multiple times already.
For me everything should me like on the old dragon… mutants and etc… more fun… you have to spend more time for playing, exping and the game is no gonna be boring when you will have 80lvl.
Quote from: Picksy on October 07, 2021, 02:19:36 PM
- make sonic move not consume forces (still requires them) - If maximum focus sonic is implemented, don't think this is needed
Sonic Move consuming 3(!) forces is retarded from game design perspective. This is the only movement skill that requires and consumes(!) such a vital class resource (forces, lets forget about mana). After using SM you have to get those 3 charges back which takes time and instead of 15s duration u end up ~13 and using maximum focus sonic only to get those 3 charges is a waste of skill.
Wolf/Rabbit is free, Dash is free, Shadow Step is free and skills from higher chronicles like rushes/blinks/dagger's boosts are free. The only char that requires something more is glad. Like wtf, brilliant idea NC Soft srsly ;D
Quote from: Picksy on October 07, 2021, 03:22:28 PM
Truth of the matter is, most people HATE destroyers and to be honest with you, if it was up to them, the class would actually be deleted, not only "not giving rush". Destro still has its place in every part of the game, be it in train farm (you can still farm with pole even with the mastery removed, you simply can go to fog at lvl 60 now as you could before), be it in RB killings, be it in PVP. There is absolutly no reason to buff a class that completly ruins the game experience for everyone else. You might be the 1% that would like to see more destros around but thats just it, you are the 1%, there are probably like max 5 guys like you in this community.
Lets all just stop for a second and keep on topic. This was about tyrant and gladiator, lets PLEASE stop talking about destros and dwarfs as this topic has been adressed multiple times already.
Ok, my last cent on the destro, after that I am all about the ty as per topic since I believe just like destro, they need some luv.
NCsoft "engineered" destros that way, and even with a stacksub they have little benefits. Yet, they were weakened and pole masteries has been taken away, all of that because after we spent 15 years on l2 interlude, we understood how to train properly.
When you say it completely ruins the game experience for everyone else, that's all due to the past when a dy/ty could kill solo a RB in 15 secs. Hence no fun in organizing parties and people becoming greedy and farm solo.
If destros we're completely useless against a RB, im talking litteraly 0 dmg, they would probably be nonexistent because the exp-lvl difference penalty is a pain and would make it not efficient farming top spots at 60. It's not pole mastery the issue, it's raids.
Now, I will be back to topic as should have been.
Ty for listening my complaints :D
Quote from: Vexim on October 07, 2021, 03:53:05 PM
Sonic Move consuming 3(!) forces is retarded from game design perspective. This is the only movement skill that requires and consumes(!) such a vital class resource (forces, lets forget about mana). After using SM you have to get those 3 charges back which takes time and instead of 15s duration u end up ~13 and using maximum focus sonic only to get those 3 charges is a waste of skill.
Wolf/Rabbit is free, Dash is free, Shadow Step is free and skills from higher chronicles like rushes/blinks/dagger's boosts are free. The only char that requires something more is glad. Like wtf, brilliant idea NC Soft srsly ;D
didnt know it was 3 forces actually, thought it was only 1 ahah, well in that case yeah, all good
tl:dr - Think all this could be good
- add Maximum Focus Sonic/Maximum Focus Force skills so they can restore forces quickly (still affects oly...)
- make sonic move not consume forces (still requires them)
- remove -p.attack from rabbit totem and add the +15-20% atk speed
- make all glad/tyrant skills ignore shield? (if possible)
- make AI attack speed bonus work with duals?
Quote from: +GekKey+ on October 07, 2021, 04:05:42 PM
Ok, my last cent on the destro, after that I am all about the ty as per topic since I believe just like destro, they need some luv.
NCsoft "engineered" destros that way, and even with a stacksub they have little benefits. Yet, they were weakened and pole masteries has been taken away, all of that because after we spent 15 years on l2 interlude, we understood how to train properly.
When you say it completely ruins the game experience for everyone else, that's all due to the past when a dy/ty could kill solo a RB in 15 secs. Hence no fun in organizing parties and people becoming greedy and farm solo.
If destros we're completely useless against a RB, im talking litteraly 0 dmg, they would probably be nonexistent because the exp-lvl difference penalty is a pain and would make it not efficient farming top spots at 60. It's not pole mastery the issue, it's raids.
Now, I will be back to topic as should have been.
Ty for listening my complaints :D
You are just wrong.
Quote from: Picksy on October 07, 2021, 04:08:02 PM
didnt know it was 3 forces actually, thought it was only 1 ahah, well in that case yeah, all good
tl:dr - Think all this could be good
- add Maximum Focus Sonic/Maximum Focus Force skills so they can restore forces quickly (still affects oly...)
- make sonic move not consume forces (still requires them)
- remove -p.attack from rabbit totem and add the +15-20% atk speed
- make all glad/tyrant skills ignore shield? (if possible)
- make AI attack speed bonus work with duals?
Love it!
Quote from: Picksy on October 07, 2021, 04:08:02 PM
tl:dr - Think all this could be good
- add Maximum Focus Sonic/Maximum Focus Force skills so they can restore forces quickly (still affects oly...)
- make sonic move not consume forces (still requires them)
- remove -p.attack from rabbit totem and add the +15-20% atk speed
- make all glad/tyrant skills ignore shield? (if possible)
- make AI attack speed bonus work with duals?
That's a huge boost actually :D.
But guess what, if people desire to make it AND it is doable I have nothing against it. TBH I would love to see more those retarded dual wielders in the field out there.
I would like to recall that if the new server will ever be upgraded to GRACIA all those changes would have to be reverted or rebalanced ;)
give all subs to dwarfs! :D nothing broken can get out of it!
Quote from: +GekKey+ on October 07, 2021, 04:05:42 PM
NCsoft "engineered" destros that way
And proceed to nerf them every patch till they were kind of replaced by Tyrr Warrior in GOD version of the game. Heck even classic have them like 90% nerfed compared to IL and they are still SUPER strong there.
Quote from: Peorexo on October 07, 2021, 06:30:20 PM
And proceed to nerf them every patch till they were kind of replaced by Tyrr Warrior in GOD version of the game. Heck even classic have them like 90% nerfed compared to IL and they are still SUPER strong there.
I replied in this topic. http://forum.dragon-community.net/index.php?topic=299366.0 (http://forum.dragon-community.net/index.php?topic=299366.0)
Just to focus this one about ty only.
Quote from: Picksy on October 07, 2021, 04:08:02 PM
didnt know it was 3 forces actually, thought it was only 1 ahah, well in that case yeah, all good
tl:dr - Think all this could be good
- add Maximum Focus Sonic/Maximum Focus Force skills so they can restore forces quickly (still affects oly...)
- make sonic move not consume forces (still requires them)
- remove -p.attack from rabbit totem and add the +15-20% atk speed
- make all glad/tyrant skills ignore shield? (if possible)
- make AI attack speed bonus work with duals?
+1
if i retail sub a dwarf can only be ty/de ? well if cant ty/dwarf class but i think its fine i can have dwarf ty anyways hehe
First of all thank you for creating this topic so I don't need to do it. You all know my opinion from discord, but let's summarize it :D
Facts:
- Tyrants are garbage and almost nonexistent (as other warriors in the current setup in terms of pvp except wl).
- OL's soulguard with light armor nerfed as hell
- sub to destro is not worth at all, 0 benefits. Nothings stacks with destro skills.
- only gets buffs from WC and soul cry which consumes mp, a lot mp
My proposals:
- Remove the drawbacks of the totems like NC did in Gracia (especially Rabbit and Ogre)
- Give the Tyrants rush with balanced CD
- and maybe GoD like focus charging system
Would it affect oly? Yes it would, but there is no character that excells both in oly and pvp. Tyrant would still suffer against archers and nukers (lack of range) at field pvp, but it would be a fair boost/balance for a warrior class.
I am sure that it's not too late to test it and for god's sake please stop hating the orcs.
Use c4 or c5 totem scheme script for ty and done lulz
Nothing gonna go broken coz is used on servers with stack main plus 3 lmfao
Quote from: iZsaka on October 08, 2021, 06:01:31 PM
and for god's sake please stop hating the orcs.
THANK YOU!!! It's not because you stink a bit that you shouldn't be loved!