[Balance] How would you boost archers in HB?

[Clonage]

Archers have good base dmg(not so good DPS) but they get outclassed by mages because of how they benifit much more from substack. The main problem is not archers being bad but they're not benifiting as much as other classes in substack.

Tank sub directly counters archers with passives, you don't even have to press buttons to counter archers. Shield Mastery (http://base.l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=153) is an example and it isnt touched.
IMO any character that is going to sub as Tank and is not an heavy armor user should inherit all tank skills balanced to the type of armor/weapon the character uses. This was already done for skills like Majesty, UD, Vengeance, etc. But this should be done for every other skill. It should feel more like: "i pressed something to actually win" then just passively blocking everything.

I would start by testing these out and see how the game feels like.

Some skills that should be tested:
Shield Mastery (http://base.l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=153) -> Balance it to light/robe, or just make it not work at all in robe users.
Guard Stance (http://base.l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=288) -> Same as above.
Shield Fortress (http://base.l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=322) -> Only balance it to light/robe.
Anti Magic Armor (http://l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=760) -> Only balance it to light/robe.
And so on...

Well there's still other problems right? Archer heavy users VS Archer heavy users And Archers vs Dagger/Tanks. Well there's a 'simple' solution.
Make them play 'retail like'.
How? Use their Weapon Mastery Passive with a DPS decrease if they don't use their class armor type.
Examples:
Bow Mastery (http://base.l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=208): 10%~15% atk speed decrease on other types of armor besides light.
Dagger Mastery (http://base.l2j.ru/index.php?p=19&skid=209): Same as above.


The important part is that this will NOT nerf tank users that want to play a retail style character such as Pal/pp. They won't be affected by the ballance because dont have the mastery.

People might think: "That's a huge nerf to Dagger/tanks". They can still use the shield for Shield Stun and benifit from all the Shield skills/passives that the tank class offers.
I would suggest to implement the old DN off hand daggers. I believe it would probably be a buff to dagger/tank users on light sets. But it would be overall more balanced then dagger/tank on heavy armor.

Example of an off hand dagger stats would be like 1/2 of the p atk as shield defense and the keep the defense rate at 20, it will always be increased with the tank passives. And is basicly an indirect buff to daggers/buffers.

If the game keeps feeling too mage oriented i still have some ideas.

[Peorexo]

Archers have good base dmg(not so good DPS) but they get outclassed by mages because of how they benifit much more from substack. The main problem is not archers being bad but they're not benifiting as much as other classes in substack.

Tank sub directly counters archers with passives, you don't even have to press buttons to counter archers. Shield Mastery is an example and it isnt touched.
IMO any character that is going to sub as Tank and is not a heavy armor user should inherit all tank skills balanced to the type of armor/weapon the character uses. This was already done for skill like Majesty, party UD, etc. But this should be done for every other skill. It should feel more like a "i pressed something to actually win"

I would start by testing these out and see how the game feels like.

Some skills that should be tested:
Shield Mastery -> Balance it to light/robe, or just make it not work at all in robe users.
Guard Stance -> Same as above.
Shield Fortress -> Only balance it to light/robe.

Well there's still other problems right? Archer heavy users VS Archer heavy users And Archers vs Dagger/Tanks. Well there's a 'simple' solution.
Make them play 'retail like'.
How? Use their Weapon Mastery Passive with a DPS decrease if they don't use their class armor type.
Examples:
Bow Mastery: 10%~15% atk speed decrease on other types of armor besides light.
Dagger Mastery: Same as above.

The most important is that this will NOT nerf tank users that want to play a retail style character such as Pal/pp. They won't be affected by the ballance because dont have the mastery.

People might think: "That's a huge nerf to Dagger/tanks". They can still use the shield for Shield Stun and benifit from all the Shield skills/passives that the tank offers.
I would suggest to implement the old DN off hand daggers. I believe it would probably be a buff to dagger/tank users on light sets. But it would be overall more balanced then dagger/tank on heavy armor.

Example of an off hand dagger stats would be like 1/2 of the p atk as shield defense and the keep the defense rate at 20, it will always be increased with the tank passives. And is basicly an indirect buff to daggers/buffers.

If the game keeps feeling too mage oriented i still have some ideas.

tl;dr cut shield in robe, dagger/bow dmg in heavy, remove mana pots (important point! to keep mages in check)

[Clonage]

tl;dr cut shield in robe, dagger/bow dmg in heavy, remove mana pots (important point! to keep mages in check)

Yeah pretty much that's the TL;DR.
Removing mana pots is important. It puts a timer on mage partys damage.

Other changes i think would improve the gameplay:
- Change how Flames of invicibility, Sublime Self-Sacrifice and Celestial Shield work. Atleast make buffs debuffs go through. It pisses me off when 2 partys do Flames or Sacrifice and nothing happens for 15/30 seconds... Either rework it or give it a static cast time of 2~3 seconds. I dont care what you do, just give it some kind of counterplay. These skills are too linear. That's why they are changed in other chronicles.

- Whenever Shield of Faith is in effect the player also receive a debuff in which they cannot benifit from another Shield of Faith for X minutes.
There's a simillar concept in Wow called Exhaustion. And it's applied when someone receives Heroism.

P.S.:
- No mutants. Rip Buff bots.
- No triple boxes. This is a MMO...

[Peorexo]

Yeah pretty much that's the TL;DR.
Removing mana pots is important. It puts a timer on mage partys damage.

Other changes i think would improve the gameplay:
- Change how Flames of invicibility, Sublime Self-Sacrifice and Celestial Shield work. Atleast make buffs debuffs go through. It pisses me off when 2 partys do Flames or Sacrifice and nothing happens for 15/30 seconds... Either rework it or give it a static cast time of 2~3 seconds. I dont care what you do, just give it some kind of counterplay. These skills are too linear. That's why they are changed in other chronicles.

- Whenever Shield of Faith is in effect the player also receive a debuff in which they cannot benifit from another Shield of Faith for X minutes.
There's a simillar concept in Wow called Exhaustion. And it's applied when someone receives Heroism.

P.S.:
- No mutants. Rip Buff bots.
- No triple boxes. This is a MMO...

Foi/Celestials etc, cancel is the counterplay + noise, its pretty much how this chronicle works, i'd leave it as it is personally.
SOF is nerfed already from what i remember on HR atm when SOF is used u cant get another bonus for like 30-45-60sec? (dunno value) pretty much like celestial in GOD.

[Clonage]

Foi/Celestials etc, cancel is the counterplay + noise, its pretty much how this chronicle works, i'd leave it as it is personally.
SOF is nerfed already from what i remember on HR atm when SOF is used u cant get another bonus for like 30-45-60sec? (dunno value) pretty much like celestial in GOD.

Hmm i remember on foi/celes not being able to cancel or do anything. I can be wrong tho.
That's how it works in H5. You can get debuffed/canceled on foi/cele and break the effect on casting a spell.

[Morel]

Removing mana pots is important. It puts a timer on mage partys damage.

Nah, imo disable using mana pots while you are engaged in pvp (like i have seen on some other server)
No mana pots in pvp, however you can use them while exping

[Peorexo]

Nah, imo disable using mana pots while you are engaged in pvp (like i have seen on some other server)
No mana pots in pvp, however you can use them while exping

Yea that one is good i thought about it as well, mana pots only available off-combat or just while sitting would be rly gut.

@down:
ye, me neither, but knowing DN, there is higher chance getting "nerf" for pots than getting it removed

[Clonage]

Yea that one is good i thought about it as well, mana pots only available off-combat or just while sitting would be rly gut.

I'd reather not see mana pots but that idea isn't bad at all.

[Garro]

I would suggest great feature that is perfectly working on all top L2 servers on hopzone or topzone, vote to get buffs (limited list) or extra buffs (if server is x10 or more, Prophecy/Cats or Pony buffs, Covs etc) ppl are voting like mad just to get buffs at the start (1h or 2h period). Simple and best feature to get server on top of the vote list.

[Clonage]

I would suggest great feature that is perfectly working on all top L2 servers on hopzone or topzone, vote to get buffs (limited list) or extra buffs (if server is x10 or more, Prophecy/Cats or Pony buffs, Covs etc) ppl are voting like mad just to get buffs at the start (1h or 2h period). Simple and best feature to get server on top of the vote list.

That idea is actually nice.


Also there's a thing that i'd like to talk about.

Custom Tattos and Potions:
I know that character customization isn't a big thing in L2, but all this custom stuff who does it really benifit? In my honest opinion this type of customization only brings instability to the gameplay and they only ramp up the mage classes. They turn the game more "complex" in a weird way. I haven't seen in years a server with this type of potions/tattos. I am not refering to mana potions, i mean Combat haste, p def, m atk, etc. They are to incosistent, they inscrease stats depending on the base number of the same stat and that number is based on Race and also the if the character is Mage or Fighter.

Aren't the "normal" buffs enough?

[mruwqa]

about mana pots,   out of pvp mana pots idea is great, there are A LOT of solo/duo players who would like to at least farm with mana pots

[Picksy]

I would suggest great feature that is perfectly working on all top L2 servers on hopzone or topzone, vote to get buffs (limited list) or extra buffs (if server is x10 or more, Prophecy/Cats or Pony buffs, Covs etc) ppl are voting like mad just to get buffs at the start (1h or 2h period). Simple and best feature to get server on top of the vote list.

I like that idea too, but I just think that you should do like a cap of 5x per vote (12 hours ??). I mean, you would vote, and you could get those buffs 5x only before you can vote again. That would also stop the leaving town with full buffs just to get some free frags like : going to town to get full buffed -> port to  farm locations -> repeat the process.
I don't know, I feel like having permanent buffs if you consistently vote is kinda OP and takes the value out of the buffers too. I think that voting rewards is a good idea, but maybe as like a boost for spoiling or drop rate. Something like a rune effect but not as impactful, like 15% increase maybe. I don't know what I'm talking about, just throwing some ideas out there that make sense to me, but I can be completly out of it 

EDIT: Just thought of something else too. If you decide to put Merchant of Mammon & Blacksmith of Mammon in towns, maybe you could edit it so that only people who voted can use them ? This type of things that ease the gameplay just enough that it is worth the effort of voting