Quote from: trackzero~ Revising dagger power and improvement to make that class "wanted" again , in same time ill revise some other skills
For discussions sake, i will start with a thesis.
The dagger class is not an unwanted class.
Surely enough, u see less of them in a mass pvp or siege, but thats only because its just not well suited, for running into a crowd, facing multiple targets.
Its an assassin class to dominate in 1v1 fights, its not a Rambo class to annihilate them all.
Furthermore its the only class, where a lvl 61 char, is able to kill without buffs, just a combat haste pot, a full buffed tank.
The most wanted subclass combinations are the ones with a support class. 2nd is currently a tank sub.
nobody wants to be 1 hitted by a vortex or a crazy archer.
But in fact, thats what a dagger class does.
He surprises you, and goes nuts with his stabs.
All i am saying is, revising the dagger power and to improve them, is a tricky business.
If lethal rate gets lowered, but dagger blows damage gets improved significantly, then it is the best solution.
Thanks for reading.
Quote from: Futile on October 19, 2009, 10:52:11 AM
The most wanted subclass combinations are the ones with a support class.
well, this depend on your clan / friend etc.
if im sure i always have someone else buffin me.... i wont go fir sure to PP/th or BD/aw
tank/dagger is the way to go when u have good parties.
Quote from: Dag on October 19, 2009, 11:06:04 AM
well, this depend on your clan / friend etc.
if im sure i always have someone else buffin me.... i wont go fir sure to PP/th or BD/aw
tank/dagger is the way to go when u have good parties.
and the someone else buffing u, has not a support class sub? what?
what about the hundred chars before l2walker and dualboxing, dont have support subs and all the oly chars?
Quote from: Dag on October 19, 2009, 11:06:04 AM
well, this depend on your clan / friend etc.
if im sure i always have someone else buffin me.... i wont go fir sure to PP/th or BD/aw
tank/dagger is the way to go when u have good parties.
the point was is that most of people cant afford or just dont want to keep 100 buff bots in town and go back to town every 3 min for rebuff and support subs are wanted in pvp because when there are 9 ppl in party and each single support is controlled directly by a person and if they work like a team that party can do really a lot.
perhaps yet only archer party proved itself good in this way since archers are in general easier to control than any other class so u can put almost anyone on archer/support.
Quote from: Futile on October 19, 2009, 10:52:11 AM
For discussions sake, i will start with a thesis.
The dagger class is not an unwanted class.
Surely enough, u see less of them in a mass pvp or siege, but thats only because its just not well suited, for running into a crowd, facing multiple targets.
Its an assassin class to dominate in 1v1 fights, its not a Rambo class to annihilate them all.
Furthermore its the only class, where a lvl 61 char, is able to kill without buffs, just a combat haste pot, a full buffed tank.
The most wanted subclass combinations are the ones with a support class. 2nd is currently a tank sub.
nobody wants to be 1 hitted by a vortex or a crazy archer.
But in fact, thats what a dagger class does.
He surprises you, and goes nuts with his stabs.
All i am saying is, revising the dagger power and to improve them, is a tricky business.
If lethal rate gets lowered, but dagger blows damage gets improved significantly, then it is the best solution.
Thanks for reading.
Well..... I've read your post and I can honestly say im not sure what you are trying to say. You usually have well thought through posts but this here doesn't look like one of them.
First of all there are pretty much 2 ways of increasing daggerpower without messing with all the other subclass option and that is either increase blow damage or lethal rate. (unless Drake decides to recode the blow crit rate)
And the community already made it pretty clear that power of blows and lower lethalrates is the way to go.
And the only way a lvl 61 dagger can kill a fullbuffed tank is with lethal.... Otherwise the dmg will be way to low per stab and you will run out of MP long before the tank runs out of HP.
And YES assasin type classes should indeed be able to kill most classes if they are alone with them. But that is not the case now... A fullbuffed TH with as+cd baium + aq and draco set hits a fullbuffed mage in robe for about 1,2k.
I don't know about you guys but imo that is pretty damn lame.. If the dagger hits a tanksubbed mage the dmg is around 800.
All stabs are easily overhealed nowadays except for crits and lethals... I can understand why the daggerclasses complain about it.
Quote from: kidicarus on October 19, 2009, 11:52:15 AM
Well..... I've read your post and I can honestly say im not sure what you are trying to say. You usually have well thought through posts but this here doesn't look like one of them.
First of all there are pretty much 2 ways of increasing daggerpower without messing with all the other subclass option and that is either increase blow damage or lethal rate. (unless Drake decides to recode the blow crit rate)
And the community already made it pretty clear that power of blows and lower lethalrates is the way to go.
And the only way a lvl 61 dagger can kill a fullbuffed tank is with lethal.... Otherwise the dmg will be way to low per stab and you will run out of MP long before the tank runs out of HP.
And YES assasin type classes should indeed be able to kill most classes if they are alone with them. But that is not the case now... A fullbuffed TH with as+cd baium + aq and draco set hits a fullbuffed mage in robe for about 1,2k.
I don't know about you guys but imo that is pretty damn lame.. If the dagger hits a tanksubbed mage the dmg is around 800.
All stabs are easily overhealed nowadays except for crits and lethals... I can understand why the daggerclasses complain about it.
dude u are the only who understands me! xD
all i am saying is:
to improve dagger classes, is not to increase lethal rate (it already has been tried to often enough, and it was just not the right way)
the damage of the blows has to be increased and the current lethal rate needs to be lowered.
3-5 top equipped archers can shoot at a tank, and he does not care much, but if 3 dagger chars hit anyone, chances are high that a lethal will finish a tank, does not matter what kinda pdef he has.
He can be in dynasty, he can have shield of faith, he can even have vengeance, lethal blows don't care and thats not right.
Now imagine a dagger char making strong dagger blows and lethaling here and there, ignoring 20,000 hp from destroyers or 3000 pdef from tanks.
Time will show that the right way to go is, increasing the dagger blow damage, and keeping the lethal rate at a minimum.
thet's the point
for me, it has more sense a he/pp than a th/pp
th suits better to wk, or pal
and if anyone wanna support his clan... pp/bp pp/wk or some damn mutant.
Quote from: Futile on October 19, 2009, 12:07:40 PM
all i am saying is:
to improve dagger classes, is not to increase lethal rate (it already has been tried to often enough, and it was just not the right way)
the damage of the blows has to be increased and the current lethal rate needs to be lowered.
3-5 top equipped archers can shoot at a tank, and he does not care much, but if 3 dagger chars hit anyone, chances are high that a lethal will finish a tank, does not matter what kinda pdef he has.
He can be in dynasty, he can have shield of faith, he can even have vengeance, lethal blows don't care and thats not right.
Now imagine a dagger char making strong dagger blows and lethaling here and there, ignoring 20,000 hp from destroyers or 3000 pdef from tanks.
Time will show that the right way to go is, increasing the dagger blow damage, and keeping the lethal rate at a minimum.
but that was already said zillion of times before and we all know that.
Quote from: Dag on October 19, 2009, 12:10:07 PM
thet's the point
for me, it has more sense a he/pp than a th/pp
th suits better to wk, or pal
and if anyone wanna support his clan... pp/bp pp/wk or some damn mutant.
nobody wants to play damned pp/bd, wc/bd, wc/sws, pp/sws. it is not even a way to play MMORPG. Imo it is much better and funnier to have active support classes in party rather than having buff bot nearby :P
tbh current lethal rate is ok, as far as i heard it will not be changed, only dmg would be increased (~20%) (which is imo too low)
I am Th/Pala and I prefer more dmg than lethals too. Its very sad when i am on AI+UE+Shield of Faith and 1 dagger lethal me :/
20%? u are kiding. The dager class owned in C3 only! after it Gm-s start cut them power. But its not the point look what dager class need to make stronger blows (DW,FIRE,COV,CAT) and the p.atk dont change anything if i have 1 p.atk or 10k p.atk i make the same blows!! The power of blows is still the same only armors and chars has much more p.def m.def (DN set,IC,draco,apella). look at mage or archers they got all the time beter webon's more p.atk(atk speed) , m.atk and what get dager? Funy IC dager witch CD what give me 100dmg more from blows? loooool
Then plsss STFU and stop QQ...
Sorry for my english
Quote from: MisiekIII on October 19, 2009, 01:22:01 PM
20%? u are kiding. The dager class owned in C3 only! after it Gm-s start cut them power. But its not the point look what dager class need to make stronger blows (DW,FURY,COV,CAT) and the p.atk dont change anything if i have 1 p.atk or 10k p.atk i make the same blows!! The power of blows is still the same only armors and chars has much more p.def m.def (DN set,IC,draco,apella). look at mage or archers they got all the time beter webon's more p.atk(atk speed) , m.atk and what get dager? Funy IC dager witch CD what give me 100dmg more from blows? loooool
Then plsss STFU and stop QQ...
Sorry for my english
not Fury, but Fire.
sry for spam here, but is true all servers except infinity are down now? (I am on work)
well 1 technic ive seen often among "lower gear" ppl, since the daggers are cheap, they just send 4-5 for 1 guy.
even if their bufs sux (usually just pp buffs, a grade armor/dagger) and you're in top gear/bufs, when you get 5 switches every 2s you can't really move. so they start the lethal spam, with 4-5 ppl on pp bufs, you get lethaled in average 10s.
pretty good to take down targets in HB, where damage is lower and people survive longer
otherwise the stabs are meaningless on full buffed ppl unless crit, as everyone says. I think %20 is a good number. crit stabs are actually high, they're just rare.
without songs, protection and dyna they're quite ok. i was hitting a mage in dc robe pp/dances buffed, and i had no bufs, no boss, no dyna, hitting him for 1.1/1.5K without crit.
Quote from: kidicarus on October 19, 2009, 11:52:15 AM
And YES assasin type classes should indeed be able to kill most classes if they are alone with them. But that is not the case now... A fullbuffed TH with as+cd baium + aq and draco set hits a fullbuffed mage in robe for about 1,2k.
I don't know about you guys but imo that is pretty damn lame.. If the dagger hits a tanksubbed mage the dmg is around 800.
They can (i'd like to see any normal class in a 1 vs 1 with yoshimo (as example)).
And what buffs a TH would need to do such dmg? pp+dances. and that 1,2k wouldn't even be a critical hit. And like you said a mage needs full buffs to make sure he doesn't get hitted more then that.
And even with doing such low dmg a dagger char can disable someone's chance to attack (switch/trick/mirage (yes counts for TH only). Try to get 3 th's upon you spamming switch and trick, wanna bet u won't be able to perform any skill that works? (atleast i couldn't).
But still 20% more dmg from blows seems nice to me (can be a bit more mby), but something is gotta get nerfed about those lethals: 1. totally remove them. 2. Only make CP or 50% hp lethals possible.
Quote from: FadeAway on October 19, 2009, 02:02:51 PM
They can (i'd like to see any normal class in a 1 vs 1 with yoshimo (as example)).
And what buffs a TH would need to do such dmg? pp+dances. and that 1,2k wouldn't even be a critical hit. And like you said a mage needs full buffs to make sure he doesn't get hitted more then that.
And even with doing such low dmg a dagger char can disable someone's chance to attack (switch/trick/mirage (yes counts for TH only). Try to get 3 th's upon you spamming switch and trick, wanna bet u won't be able to perform any skill that works? (atleast i couldn't).
But still 20% more dmg from blows seems nice to me (can be a bit more mby), but something is gotta get nerfed about those lethals: 1. totally remove them. 2. Only make CP or 50% hp lethals possible.
he can :P Group Heal, Balance Life :)
so we all agree here.
blow damage should be increased (by which amount is up to the staff)
and lethal rate should be lowered.
it rarely happens that players agree with each other and let me point out, that players from Nightmare and Dragon are agreeing here.
and yes i have seen the strategy too lately. sending 5 daggers to take out all enemy healers or the main tank.
lethal wins all.
Quote from: Ashlynn on October 19, 2009, 02:08:11 PM
he can :P Group Heal, Balance Life :)
not with 3 daggers on you.
as long as its not instant cast, it can get interrupted/switched.
Quote from: Futile on October 19, 2009, 02:11:54 PM
so we all agree here.
blow damage should be increased (by which amount is up to the staff)
and lethal rate should be lowered.
it rarely happens that players agree with each other and let me point out, that players from Nightmare and Dragon are agreeing here.
and yes i have seen the strategy too lately. sending 5 daggers to take out all enemy healers or the main tank.
lethal wins all.
sorry but
FU !!! i 'm still infinity player :D
ragards
i'd like to add another of my precious contributions to this topic and point out that veti likes potatoes.
its completely related to lethal rate.
Quote from: FadeAway on October 19, 2009, 02:02:51 PM
They can (i'd like to see any normal class in a 1 vs 1 with yoshimo (as example)).
And what buffs a TH would need to do such dmg? pp+dances. and that 1,2k wouldn't even be a critical hit. And like you said a mage needs full buffs to make sure he doesn't get hitted more then that.
And even with doing such low dmg a dagger char can disable someone's chance to attack (switch/trick/mirage (yes counts for TH only). Try to get 3 th's upon you spamming switch and trick, wanna bet u won't be able to perform any skill that works? (atleast i couldn't).
But still 20% more dmg from blows seems nice to me (can be a bit more mby), but something is gotta get nerfed about those lethals: 1. totally remove them. 2. Only make CP or 50% hp lethals possible.
Well.... Yeah it's true that one of the best geared TH/WL's is kinda hard to kill in 1 vs 1..... But i'd reckon i could take him with magical backfire and healing alone.
It's true that 1.2k wouldn't be a critical hit... but it would be -100mp and it would be about the max dmg you could make... Crit hits are rare, i think lethals are more common.
Yes a dagger can disable someones target.... But a tank can stun a target, a sorc or sps can cancel a target, a necro or SH can silence and curse the target.
My point is that every class got something..... And trick and switch is kinda fun in 1 vs 1, but im not even gonna act like its a great skill cause it really isn't. It's just what an assasin can do to save his own ass sometimes.
And once again..... Sure you can play the "ant tactic" and swarm someone and it works great. But what class doesn't work great with 3 of them attacking 1 target?
Imagine 3 x EE manaburning you at the same time
Imagine 3 tanks constantly stunning you.
Imagine 3 nukers cursing and vortexing your ass
Imagine 3 OL's casting curses around you
Imagine 3 crafters with thoose annoying little robots hammercrushing you
Imagine..... Well you get the point.
Imo daggers shouldn't have to be that many..... For me the charm of playing dagger is being able to take out atleast 1 target alone. Right now daggers have low damage, low MP, relatively low defence. So whats the point? Running really really fast?
Quote from: kidicarus on October 19, 2009, 03:27:23 PM
So whats the point? Running really really fast?
Nah, being the first to see if the floor was cleaned properly :D
u needed to read the other topics about daggerists, cos no1 is talking about increase lethal rate...
Quote from: Ashlynn on October 19, 2009, 01:30:03 PM
not Fury, but Fire.
12 years old kid correction, ppl get the point....
im 100% agree with misiek... when i heard about this "daggerist improve" i was kinda relieved, cos buying icarus dagger its like.... u get like 0 benefits!
Agree on dmg increase, in mass pvp fully buffed i hit mages like ~700, lights ~600, heavy like 400-500. So belive me, kill any1 is very hard now. 20% would be like 80 dmg more on heavy, so for me its still funny dmg:) Maybe you shouldnt increase damage by %, maybe you should try increase it by a fixed value? Cuz that way mages/lights will cry again, and tanks will still laugh. I guess skill crit dmg is at fixed rate, around 2x normal blow. But they are so rare, actually they are more rare than lethal, it shouldnt be like this:)
PS.Dont change lethal rate.
Quote from: kidicarus on October 19, 2009, 03:27:23 PM
Well.... Yeah it's true that one of the best geared TH/WL's is kinda hard to kill in 1 vs 1..... But i'd reckon i could take him with magical backfire and healing alone.
It's true that 1.2k wouldn't be a critical hit... but it would be -100mp and it would be about the max dmg you could make... Crit hits are rare, i think lethals are more common.
Yes a dagger can disable someones target.... But a tank can stun a target, a sorc or sps can cancel a target, a necro or SH can silence and curse the target.
and sh can cancel a target too !
Well blows's power not related to patk might be considered as a liability as much as an asset :
Currently the blow's power is low, so people might indeed be 'ah freak it, lame formula not related to patk, our dmg blows'.
But if blows get boosted untill they reach a very decent power, it might be because of this formula not relying on patk, and then daggers would end up with high power blows and free buffs slots thanks to the fact they reach their full blow power without any patk buff, hence the formula turned into an asset..
Quote from: FadeAway on October 19, 2009, 02:02:51 PM
They can (i'd like to see any normal class in a 1 vs 1 with yoshimo (as example)).
And what buffs a TH would need to do such dmg? pp+dances. and that 1,2k wouldn't even be a critical hit. And like you said a mage needs full buffs to make sure he doesn't get hitted more then that.
And even with doing such low dmg a dagger char can disable someone's chance to attack (switch/trick/mirage (yes counts for TH only). Try to get 3 th's upon you spamming switch and trick, wanna bet u won't be able to perform any skill that works? (atleast i couldn't).
But still 20% more dmg from blows seems nice to me (can be a bit more mby), but something is gotta get nerfed about those lethals: 1. totally remove them. 2. Only make CP or 50% hp lethals possible.
Gimem sheild buffs and I will show you. Even as HE/PAL no dagger can kill me without a lethal because when I got my sheild equipped my sheild defence rate + the LOW damage of the daggers means that I can easily spam cp at a faster rate than they can kill me. Yoshimo has only ever killed me when I've had my bow equipped or by a lethal.
Daggers jus suck and they need a boost for sure, I say keep lethal (~at a low rate though) and just give the damage a big boost.
Quote from: Furesy on October 19, 2009, 03:29:21 PM
Nah, being the first to see if the floor was cleaned properly :D
+1 xD
it's damn nice to see 90% of community asking for a boost instead of a nerf !!!!
Quote from: kidicarus on October 19, 2009, 03:27:23 PM
Well.... Yeah it's true that one of the best geared TH/WL's is kinda hard to kill in 1 vs 1..... But i'd reckon i could take him with magical backfire and healing alone.
It's true that 1.2k wouldn't be a critical hit... but it would be -100mp and it would be about the max dmg you could make... Crit hits are rare, i think lethals are more common.
Lethals and critical hits are coming in a pretty much same amount for me... I wouldn't said one occurs more often than another :P
I am AW/SK and i think i can add my thoughts in this conversation.
Lethal rate sux. But it shouldn't be more because that way we could pwn all ppl on srv if we come by 2.
But the dmg from blows are funny. In apella heavy and w/o rb jew i can blow for ~800.
Now realize that i give this dmg to any healer. If he spam heal i can't do shit.
OFC with dyna/baium etc. i can give more dmg, but tbh not everyone have those kind of items.
So my conclusion is that blows are ridiculously low powered.
Keep lethal rate at this lvl (althought it suck) but more power to blows. But tbh 20% increase is still too low in my opinion.
Quote from: ballberith on October 19, 2009, 11:15:26 PM
I am AW/SK and i think i can add my thoughts in this conversation.
Lethal rate sux. But it shouldn't be more because that way we could pwn all ppl on srv if we come by 2.
But the dmg from blows are funny. In apella heavy and w/o rb jew i can blow for ~800.
Now realize that i give this dmg to any healer. If he spam heal i can't do shit.
OFC with dyna/baium etc. i can give more dmg, but tbh not everyone have those kind of items.
So my conclusion is that blows are ridiculously low powered.
Keep lethal rate at this lvl (althought it suck) but more power to blows. But tbh 20% increase is still too low in my opinion.
For me lethal is biggest stupid thing in this game...
90% of people want lower lethal and more dmg from skills.
It's super stupid 62lv dagger with A grade to kill tank with full buff with dinasty and etc with
1 Hit?!!?!
if you, a tank, get killed by a dagger < 76 with similar gear / level ..... just REROLL !!! seriously ... quit this game, start playing solitaire, cause this is just too hard
Quote from: tzuc on October 20, 2009, 08:17:18 AM
if you, a tank, get killed by a dagger < 76 with similar gear / level ..... just REROLL !!! seriously ... quit this game, start playing solitaire, cause this is just too hard
I play Th/Pala. I make lethals too, but (if u can read) this sux.
P.s.
Don't tell me what to play and what to no (Seems you are from people who want more lethals and can't play without. So go play Minesweeper if is not too hard for you)
Quote from: tzuc on October 20, 2009, 08:17:18 AM
if you, a tank, get killed by a dagger < 76 with similar gear / level ..... just REROLL !!! seriously ... quit this game, start playing solitaire, cause this is just too hard
we are not talking about 1v1. i am saying that i dont care if 5 archer shoot me with icarus spitter and full buffs.
but when 5 dagger users with any dagger weapon come and start spamming blows. its always the lethal that makes the kill.
at the siege i kill enemies non stop, so i engage often enough the enemy, so in corelation to that there are enough dagger users that spam blows and pray for a lethal.
it just isnt right, that during shield of faith as a tank u have like 8k pdef and 12,000 hp left. u see all the time damage report 200 damage, 517 damage, magic crit 800 damage, 512 damage, 507 damage.
then a low gear non war dagger user comes, u see 187 damage. *lethal* hp/cp gone.
thats just so plain stupid.
thats no skill and no fun.
Quote from: Futile on October 20, 2009, 11:03:59 AM
we are not talking about 1v1. i am saying that i dont care if 5 archer shoot me with icarus spitter and full buffs.
but when 5 dagger users with any dagger weapon come and start spamming blows. its always the lethal that makes the kill.
at the siege i kill enemies non stop, so i engage often enough the enemy, so in corelation to that there are enough dagger users that spam blows and pray for a lethal.
it just isnt right, that during shield of faith as a tank u have like 8k pdef and 12,000 hp left. u see all the time damage report 200 damage, 517 damage, magic crit 800 damage, 512 damage, 507 damage.
then a low gear non war dagger user comes, u see 187 damage. *lethal* hp/cp gone.
thats just so plain stupid.
thats no skill and no fun.
+1
Lethal is the most unfair (funny...but unfair) thing oround
1: lethal
2: mana burn (specially in retail ...we have mana pots but still shit)
3: clestial / barriers/ VOP
and i told it as th/pp. so as th i should be the first asking for uberpwnzor char.
once again i think all fair player prefer to have a honorable death in pvp, beside a stupid YHUUHUUUUUUU ONE SHOT ONE KILL
Who said it should be fair? Live isnt fair. Lethal is a part of game shouldnt be removed. Now its on low rate and its ok. Just the dmg is funny and 20%+ wont change the situation.
Work in progress, bear wiv me.