Here are my thoughts about part of the update from 05/02 concerning tank skills:
UD, Vengence and AntiMagic Armour - nerf for archers and mages. Ok, can't argue too much here - nobody wants to face any damage dealer with long distance attacks and massive def. bonus. Maybe one thing worth commenting is why mages only get m. crit rate taken down and archers get penalty for atk range and atk. spd/crit.dmg? Mage/tank can still use a shield that gives extra defence, so why nerf archers more when they can't? If it is because mage/tank players cry about lower UD def. bonus in robe already then well, tough - tank is a warrior, you want full bonus - switch to warrior stats...
Shield of faith - as much as the above skills nerf archers and mages since attacks with nukes/arrows are "unrelated to the tank class", SoF IS a PARTY buff, therefore I don't see a reason why archers & mages get nerfed here. Lately there was a lot of fuss about making daggers stronger becasue they are 'so weak' that people stop playing as daggers. Tanks are no longer usefulll since the era of ty/des, except the last thing, which is the ability to support party with the defence, and now we nerf that.
So yeah lets make mages do less magic crits and archers hit for 20% less on crits and reduce their range by 20% on top of that (just to illustrate HE on Snipe not only cant move but instead of 1100 range he has 880, SR with RapidFire instead of 600 range ends up with 480??). At the same time enemy team (it must have been about pvp, nobody would whine about such stats in PvE) can get SoF as well, and now we have i.e. dagger with lethals running around with same def. bonus as archers - this is OK yep? Imagine this: SR vs TH, both on SoF- dagger only needs to travel that 480 distance between them (probably on dash) and guess what - Mirrage which "Has a chance to cancel the target of an enemy who attacks you" always changes your target so bb archer...
Now archer/tank vs non-archer/non-tank has a lower chances of winning if both get SoF. Funny thing is that if archer/tank uses UD only (say other skills not ready) then non-archer enemy with SoF will rape him since our 'haxxor' archer/tank just lost 20% atk spd. Imo we just made a little un-balanced gameplay here...
With the other skills that make you immobilised there is no point to i.e. put a nerf on dagger or dual-swords (altho you can use ranged skills here) cos comon who's gonna be stupid enough to get face-to-face-close to i.e. dagger on UD?? :D I see that as good when we talk about ranged-dd/tank characters that can self-ud. But when we'r talking about something that everyone gets, why make any exceptions? Come to think about it - ty/des will get the same def. bonus... (maybe make him run 50% slower on SoF lol)
Dagger/tank - same def. bonus plus the advantage of quiping the shield at the same time as his weapon (shield makes a huge difference, sometimes you get 1dmg point only).
So my point is:
SoF should work same for everyone.
Other UD skills that work on caster-only could be left as they are now but imo there could be a better solution (after all this is the whole idea of stacking-subclasses system, you are using skills that are not related to your main class, so saying "tank unrelated" this or that is a sortof dumb excuse, sorry :( It's just like saying: let's make bison work with fists only! 1/2h-swords/blunts are unrelated to tyrant class etc etc and after few minutes you realise that there are so many classes that should never see some of the skills they use all the time. It's okey if you want to balance the server but please come up with a smarter explanation - what I read in loader made my angry enough to write THIS much even that I'm not afected by the update - I'd rather hear "half of server population that do pvp was crying a river about being powned by haxxor xx/tank, so to shut em up and make them happy we made this nerf" - that'd be better, at least I know that this load of people may stay here and play instead of leaving the game).
I don't want to start another flame-fall, noob-attack, nerf-lauch thread or anything alike but I don't think it would be fair if SoF will be left like it is. I know certain people for whom file is easier now will try to turn everything that I said against me or just say "naab" as the answer but I hope that some people can look at this in a neutral and objective way.
Peace
dont forget that archer/tank in UD can wear heavy and mages cant
so mages have only 25% of UD/veng bonus, which is not much
i think its fair enough to nerf mages less
dagger/tanks are already "nerfed" with speed bonus from dash and evasion
glads and destro or ty mutants are next in line xD
P.S. my char is sk/ps, constant nerfs every few months since C4 and is still fun to play (no dmg+no defence+no buffs+no heals= pure fun)
btw the most stupid thing of this update its sof -20% bow range i wwant just to inform u that with sof u can move without problem :P
not when attacking siege wall
Quote from: Argriev on February 07, 2010, 05:35:43 PM
btw the most stupid thing of this update its sof -20% bow range i wwant just to inform u that with sof u can move without problem :P
yeh right, tell it to SR who have 600 (?) range, is this cool to go face to face with bunch of angry enemies? :D
You stole my avatar and then edited it! SCAMMER! :o >:(
<Some random shit was floating here due to misunderstanding, so it was removed>
It's been quoted by legendary so it doesnt really help but I hope that at least it shows that I'm not going to say Im right when Im not, or keep on flaming without thinking.. :)
+ I made a better avatar now hehe
Your friendly Merm ;D
Quote from: Merm on February 07, 2010, 10:06:13 PM
1. I thought I just typed "Bleach hollow mask" in google search, found a wallpaper ( http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7300000/hollow-mask-bleach-anime-7344290-1600-1200.jpg (http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7300000/hollow-mask-bleach-anime-7344290-1600-1200.jpg) ) and made it into an avatar myself, while you probaly got a ready one from an avatar website...
2. Learn the definition of word 'scammer' so you can use it correctly. First try http://translate.google.com/#en|es|scammer (http://translate.google.com/#en%7Ces%7Cscammer)
3. Your post is unrelevant to my topic. If you want your post count increased so badly make own topic, maybe "legendaryvicious exclusive spam" instead of fokin around here.
Your friendly Merm ;D
1. Got it from a friend
2. Notice that the word scammer is used deliberately the wrong way in a manner of joke.
3. If i'd care to increase my post count it'd already be higher than 157......
@ legendaryvicious
Well if it was a joke then you have my apologies and I'm removing my other post right now. Btw I suppose it would help if you put a laughing smiley, so I get a hint - unfortunatelly there is many people who would say that in a serious manner.
Please keep on track with the topic.
Cheers
+1 for nerm
There is already downside on playing archer/tank and now we they put some ridiculous update on it... Like merm said... archer/tank cant use a shield, so they loose much protection (yea, if u noob think a shield dont give so much pdef, try get hit by an archer and after u will see that this shield probly saved ur ass more than u think).
Ok, from the last update we had the UD+walking working but comon ? i mean does everyone think we got full bonus ? full buffed + dash i had about 89 run speed... what am i gonna do with this ? even with a dagger, when u have under 200 run speed, u will run long if u enemy kite u... this ud+walking is not so great as people tought and beside, who stay in range of an archer on ud ? when u use ud, people just run away and wwait till you come back, whats the big deal on archer+ud ? just run away and chill...
on the part about mage, oh plis this is bs... mage can still make like 90% mcrit and only 10% taken off? lol... take that off so we play hard, or nerf it lie you should so u CAN say you made a good balance... such a nerf is just so you can cover your ass and say u nerfed mage also with this update... sry but...
Quote from: GekKey on February 08, 2010, 12:44:32 PM
+1 for nerm
There is already downside on playing archer/tank and now we they put some ridiculous update on it... Like merm said... archer/tank cant use a shield, so they loose much protection (yea, if u noob think a shield dont give so much pdef, try get hit by an archer and after u will see that this shield probly saved ur ass more than u think).
Ok, from the last update we had the UD+walking working but comon ? i mean does everyone think we got full bonus ? full buffed + dash i had about 89 run speed... what am i gonna do with this ? even with a dagger, when u have under 200 run speed, u will run long if u enemy kite u... this ud+walking is not so great as people tought and beside, who stay in range of an archer on ud ? when u use ud, people just run away and wwait till you come back, whats the big deal on archer+ud ? just run away and chill...
on the part about mage, oh plis this is bs... mage can still make like 90% mcrit and only 10% taken off? lol... take that off so we play hard, or nerf it lie you should so u CAN say you made a good balance... such a nerf is just so you can cover your ass and say u nerfed mage also with this update... sry but...
Buhuu archers are nerfed in UD. Ever tried playing a real tank? I have ~ 360 range with bow, if im lucky i can fire 1 arrow before the enemy gets out of my way. If i stand in the middle of monster derby track my arrows can't reach the corners.
And 80+ speed on UD? You're practically a speed deamon!
I got my ud at +10 decrease penalty and my max speed on buffs and rabbits is 65~
Crying that mages don't get nerfed as hard as archers.... What about us tanks? We got nerfed aswell, and we werent exactly great to begin with. Especially nowadays when defence doesn't matter vs theese damn attributes.....
Quote from: GekKey on February 08, 2010, 12:44:32 PM
+1 for nerm
There is already downside on playing archer/tank and now we they put some ridiculous update on it... Like merm said... archer/tank cant use a shield, so they loose much protection (yea, if u noob think a shield dont give so much pdef, try get hit by an archer and after u will see that this shield probly saved ur ass more than u think).
Ok, from the last update we had the UD+walking working but comon ? i mean does everyone think we got full bonus ? full buffed + dash i had about 89 run speed... what am i gonna do with this ? even with a dagger, when u have under 200 run speed, u will run long if u enemy kite u... this ud+walking is not so great as people tought and beside, who stay in range of an archer on ud ? when u use ud, people just run away and wwait till you come back, whats the big deal on archer+ud ? just run away and chill...
on the part about mage, oh plis this is bs... mage can still make like 90% mcrit and only 10% taken off? lol... take that off so we play hard, or nerf it lie you should so u CAN say you made a good balance... such a nerf is just so you can cover your ass and say u nerfed mage also with this update... sry but...
Well you can't expect to kiting on UD...
update:
UltimateDefense: -10% bowrange, -20% bowspeed, -10% magicCritical
MISS: -15% CASTING SPEED -5% castrange
ShieldOfFaith: -20% bowCriticalDamage, -30% magicalCritical, -20% bowRange
MISS: - 15% M ATK -10% castrange
Vengeance: -10% bowRange, -20% bowSpeed, -20% magicalCritical
MISS: -15% CASTING SPEED -5% bowrange
AntiMagicArmor: -20% bowRange, -20% magicalCritical
ok :)
Quote from: Piccy on February 08, 2010, 01:48:11 PM
update:
UltimateDefense: -10% bowrange, -20% bowspeed, -10% magicCritical
MISS: -15% CASTING SPEED -5% castrange
ShieldOfFaith: -20% bowCriticalDamage, -30% magicalCritical, -20% bowRange
MISS: - 15% M ATK -10% castrange
Vengeance: -10% bowRange, -20% bowSpeed, -20% magicalCritical
MISS: -15% CASTING SPEED -5% bowrange
AntiMagicArmor: -20% bowRange, -20% magicalCritical
ok :)
I still don't see why they have to nerf it in % instead of just capping it :/ You're slowly sufficating my poor tank.....
Well after all it's better to make it percentage-based because if you have low stats it takes less away (if i.e. you had 400 range - 20% is only 80range taken away). If it was a constant value and they had to take HE on snipe in count and i.e. took just 300range off everyone you would end up with 100 range (following the example above).
It's good to see that mages are affected by the nerf a little more as well - NO not because I hate you nukers, just because it seems more fair, you have drains etc archers don't :)
Yeah,we should keep in mind the tanks that are not archers... Before, tank could go UD and pull out a bow to at least scare people off, damage was not all this great but he could hit more careless people. Now a tank on UD (that is NOT archer) will just stand there like an idiot for a little longer than normally while nukers spam their skills on him outside of his range. Maybe try to activate the bow nerf on chars that actually have Bow Mastery.
Shield of faith... well I don't think that I will gain anything here. But please reconsider once more to keep it without nerf or minimise the nerf a little. Everyone can get SoF! So if there is pvp between 2 parties both receiving SoF from one of their players the pvp should look just like both parties had no SoF (each class should have their advantages and disadvantages as before) but obviously pvp would last longer. Why for example HE/PP with SoF from his fellow tank should be put into a loosing position vs Glad/PP that got SoF from his friend tank? Both can run, right? Glad has sonic move, right? Glad has Duelist Spirit, 30second invincibility, 25% dmg bonus from War Cry, makes even more crits from skills now (example here: glad makes 4.5k dmg on my char with crit triple sonic slash - same lvl, back then I was wearing IC set on my HE, same buffs as well). If you think that this is fair now, could you share with us the reasons behind it?
Silver ranger now in ud and that skill that lower range...mmm better put on a dagger xd
+1 for merm who wrote at last a witty post! finally someone who think really about the game and write something without be stupid! Gg dude
Quote from: Merm on February 08, 2010, 02:28:45 PM
Well after all it's better to make it percentage-based because if you have low stats it takes less away (if i.e. you had 400 range - 20% is only 80range taken away). If it was a constant value and they had to take HE on snipe in count and i.e. took just 300range off everyone you would end up with 100 range (following the example above).
Capped meaning "Whilst in UD range is reduced to 600" for example. Then it would only effect the archers.
And if i have 400 range and are left with 320 im not happy it only took away 80 points... Im pissed it left me with 320, when im already low on range.
@ kidicarus
I know and I feel sorry for you. That's what I mentioned in um 3rd paragraph - put bow nerf on characters that have Bow Mastery. So as a pure tank you ofc don't have a Bow Mastery you get as an archer, therefore you should not get any nerf here.
Capping it to a strict value would not be fair either. You said i.e. make it 600 range on UD - that would mean that non-archer characters would have higher range with bow than normally (by 200). Also why should HE on snipe (that gives range bonus) should have same range on UD as SR on Rapid Fire (which reduces range). That would make no sense to me.
Quote from: Merm on February 09, 2010, 09:05:46 PM
@ kidicarus
I know and I feel sorry for you. That's what I mentioned in um 3rd paragraph - put bow nerf on characters that have Bow Mastery. So as a pure tank you ofc don't have a Bow Mastery you get as an archer, therefore you should not get any nerf here.
Capping it to a strict value would not be fair either. You said i.e. make it 600 range on UD - that would mean that non-archer characters would have higher range with bow than normally (by 200). Also why should HE on snipe (that gives range bonus) should have same range on UD as SR on Rapid Fire (which reduces range). That would make no sense to me.
Capped means that you can't go higher then that value, it doesn't necessarily mean that all others gets boosted to that set value.
And if someone makes SR/TK instead of HE/PAL as a consequence of that I would see it as a positive sideeffect :)
But this is only one alternate solution, getting the nerf on characters with bowmastery would ofcourse be better but seems like it would be alot more work. And daggers/tank with low lvl mastery will probably cry that they get nerfed on the same terms as archers.
Quote from: Piccy on February 08, 2010, 01:48:11 PM
update:
UltimateDefense: -10% bowrange, -20% bowspeed, -10% magicCritical
MISS: -15% CASTING SPEED -5% castrange
ShieldOfFaith: -20% bowCriticalDamage, -30% magicalCritical, -20% bowRange
MISS: - 15% M ATK -10% castrange
Vengeance: -10% bowRange, -20% bowSpeed, -20% magicalCritical
MISS: -15% CASTING SPEED -5% bowrange
AntiMagicArmor: -20% bowRange, -20% magicalCritical
ok :)
archers have fullpower UD cuz they can wear heavy, mages only 25% (+900 pdef+500 mdef with imobilization)
so this sugestion is dumb cuz tank/mages will be more nerfed then any archer or other subbed char
and yes, i care about my "10-nerfs-per-year" sk/ps
Quote from: Merm on February 08, 2010, 02:28:45 PM
Yeah,we should keep in mind the tanks that are not archers... Before, tank could go UD and pull out a bow to at least scare people off, damage was not all this great but he could hit more careless people. Now a tank on UD (that is NOT archer) will just stand there like an idiot for a little longer than normally while nukers spam their skills on him outside of his range. Maybe try to activate the bow nerf on chars that actually have Bow Mastery.
Good point. +1
Quote from: FDX on February 10, 2010, 09:16:50 AM
archers have fullpower UD cuz they can wear heavy, mages only 25% (+900 pdef+500 mdef with imobilization)
so this sugestion is dumb cuz tank/mages will be more nerfed then any archer or other subbed char
and yes, i care about my "10-nerfs-per-year" sk/ps
Vengance is no longer 100% in robe?
Quote from: kidicarus on February 10, 2010, 10:30:10 AM
Vengance is no longer 100% in robe?
vengeance is half power.. but i noticed just now you can use it WITH UD (new feature?)
so ud+9 + veng +gs+9 + arcana set+5 + talismans i have 5k pdef
ud+gs+tali=2k pdef
veng+gs+tali=4k
only equip+gs=1.k
no gs=950 pdef
but afaik vengeance need to be activated near enemy and at 75% hp which is ~2.8-3k hp of mage/tank on oly
Quote from: FDX on February 10, 2010, 06:13:22 PM
vengeance is half power.. but i noticed just now you can use it WITH UD (new feature?)
so ud+9 + veng +gs+9 + arcana set+5 + talismans i have 5k pdef
ud+gs+tali=2k pdef
veng+gs+tali=4k
only equip+gs=1.k
no gs=950 pdef
but afaik vengeance need to be activated near enemy and at 75% hp which is ~2.8-3k hp of mage/tank on oly
4k in major arcana can't be 50% i got 8k in Dnet heavy. And my base def unbuffed is around 2k. Sounds like its around 75% effect.
And SoF still adds alot aswell.... Did not know about ud/veng stack though :P
Quote from: kidicarus on February 10, 2010, 06:44:30 PM
4k in major arcana can't be 50% i got 8k in Dnet heavy. And my base def unbuffed is around 2k. Sounds like its around 75% effect.
And SoF still adds alot aswell.... Did not know about ud/veng stack though :P
and tell me since when your pal have guard stance to compare?
so its 2.8k bonus < which is less then 50%
dont know about SoF - have no SP for it and no desire to go for exp :P
p.s. there was mistype: 1.2k with GS
[Edit]
just noticed that on Vengeance test i had low hp, so its 4.1k with FINAL FORTRESS, veng aand GS
I find this update senseless since every party can have SOF, it's not something u get only with donator coins... u just need to exp a phoenix knight. With the last update/nerf (sof reuse +50%) it was more than enough.
Quote from: kidicarus on February 08, 2010, 01:24:48 PM
Buhuu archers are nerfed in UD. Ever tried playing a real tank? I have ~ 360 range with bow, if im lucky i can fire 1 arrow before the enemy gets out of my way. If i stand in the middle of monster derby track my arrows can't reach the corners.
And 80+ speed on UD? You're practically a speed deamon!
I got my ud at +10 decrease penalty and my max speed on buffs and rabbits is 65~
Crying that mages don't get nerfed as hard as archers.... What about us tanks? We got nerfed aswell, and we werent exactly great to begin with. Especially nowadays when defence doesn't matter vs theese damn attributes.....
Quote from: Dadghamor on February 08, 2010, 01:35:00 PM
Well you can't expect to kiting on UD...
My point was... We basicly got this nerf on tank cause of the new enchant path working, making us able to "move"... this made everyone who isnt a tank panic thinking "OMIGAD TANK WITH UD AND CAN RUN NOOONWOEIWANFIAEN DA I WILL BE BACON"
in the end, this enchant is pretty much shit... ur better enchant it for reuse(can?) power or time... cause decrease penality is totally useless
Quote from: Piccy on February 08, 2010, 01:48:11 PM
update:
UltimateDefense: -10% bowrange, -20% bowspeed, -10% magicCritical
MISS: -15% CASTING SPEED -5% castrange
ShieldOfFaith: -20% bowCriticalDamage, -30% magicalCritical, -20% bowRange
MISS: - 15% M ATK -10% castrange
Vengeance: -10% bowRange, -20% bowSpeed, -20% magicalCritical
MISS: -15% CASTING SPEED -5% bowrange
AntiMagicArmor: -20% bowRange, -20% magicalCritical
ok :)
Why on shield of faith theres no nerf for dagger ? all are scared of archers with ud but not dagger ? i would worry more of daggers than archers and they have no downside effect.... maybe something like blow reuse is longer, do less damage...
Why not do it this way... each bow moastery has a decrease range % on ud... so, when u have no bow masteries, you are totally unaffected, when you have few bow masteries like daggers, you have little big affected, and when u are a archer, with top masteries u are totally screwed... i mean affected...
Also, if someone says, aaa im genious, i wont learn the last masteries from my class, that why ill have more range.. wrrong... as more as your lvl of bow masteries increase, your penality on ud increase also to reach 20% on lvl 52
so? now tank arent affected, daggers slightly, and archers like the nerf want it to be
Quote from: GekKey on February 24, 2010, 12:18:47 PM
Why on shield of faith theres no nerf for dagger ? all are scared of archers with ud but not dagger ? i would worry more of daggers than archers and they have no downside effect.... maybe something like blow reuse is longer, do less damage...
Don't worry about daggers naab. You can run away when they use UD. They will be unable to move, or be really slow.
why the freak even discuss this?
just remove this idiotic nerf, it's already enough (big downside) that archer/tank can not use a shield + bow and buff slot problem
now because there's an he/pal on Dragon server with icarus+16 owning oly, everyone must face the nerf?
gtfo really
Quote from: wildpussy on February 28, 2010, 03:03:54 PM
why the freak even discuss this?
just remove this idiotic nerf, it's already enough (big downside) that archer/tank can not use a shield + bow and buff slot problem
now because there's an he/pal on Dragon server with icarus+16 owning oly, everyone must face the nerf?
gtfo really
u mean +25 ^^
yeah exactly.. 1 person owns and everyone gets nerf lol where are the times where everyone would just make the good char instead of crying about it... and now once babies noticed that crying actually helps all we get is nerfs lol
ah yeah and updates that make stuff work like on official - LOL WTF we are on serv with stacking sub xD if we wanted retail-like serv would we be here?? :P
TY/DES overpowered? make one... HE/PAL overpowered? make one... OL/EE, TH/TYR, SR/WL just make one and stfu :P
everyone can make these chars; and if some1 thinks that he cba to make main then retail and then sub to make mutant or something (like me for example) then fine, but let people who put that effort into a char have some fun...
I cant wait to hear some noobs crying that SE in Pig transform owned them ;D
sorry to say but if we actually get Gracia and things dont change this will be a big lol serv (+100mdef for tanks,sws,bd and +30%pvp dmg for some classes etc etc lol i wonder what will happen...)
Quote from: wildpussy on February 28, 2010, 03:03:54 PM
why the freak even discuss this?
just remove this idiotic nerf, it's already enough (big downside) that archer/tank can not use a shield + bow and buff slot problem
now because there's an he/pal on Dragon server with icarus+16 owning oly, everyone must face the nerf?
gtfo really
as hmm Kang told me back then something I admit I didnt thought about, use macro when kitting you'll have a shield. Anyway as a tk/es I suffered a lot of brainless insults and pointless flames for the fun of it. To be honest, I stoped playing cuz I really really mean it when I say that this entire community is retarded. Well it's not really true. A minority lives on. (Merm in this topic, kidicarus... some few others).Anyway the cap idea rulez... tanks already cant agro properly... how about you big heads stop nerfing?
Quote from: Chicks on March 06, 2010, 03:49:24 AM
as hmm Kang told me back then something I admit I didnt thought about, use macro when kitting you'll have a shield. Anyway as a tk/es I suffered a lot of brainless insults and pointless flames for the fun of it. To be honest, I stoped playing cuz I really really mean it when I say that this entire community is retarded. Well it's not really true. A minority lives on. (Merm in this topic, kidicarus... some few others).Anyway the cap idea rulez... tanks already cant agro properly... how about you big heads stop nerfing?
lool i always wanted to make a tk-es... but since they got the patk nerf from stacking masteries... all changed... yea, people who wanna play as normal tank always get the shaft... for instance.. anyone notice tank only have sword/blunt masteries lvl 10 ? when normally they can get lvl 45... that blocks tank from enchanting this skill... it fuking suck, have a skill, not even proper lvl, dont give the bonus it should and cant enchant...
Quote from: GekKey on March 06, 2010, 11:21:39 AM
lool i always wanted to make a tk-es... but since they got the patk nerf from stacking masteries... all changed... yea, people who wanna play as normal tank always get the shaft... for instance.. anyone notice tank only have sword/blunt masteries lvl 10 ? when normally they can get lvl 45... that blocks tank from enchanting this skill... it fuking suck, have a skill, not even proper lvl, dont give the bonus it should and cant enchant...
comon trashy way of thinking : Ho well a minority are used to make an exploit. Lets let those exploiter live since they pay the bigger hands and lets nerf the minority since well ... its a minority... who cares. Recalls me of slavery but wtvr