Tank "nerfs"

[Garn.]

Pure tanks are not nerfed.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


u made my day.

[ameba40]

Pure tanks are not nerfed.
DPS classes that subclass to a tank to go in godmode are nerfed.

pure tank cant use a bow or dagger (like hero dagger xP )weapon w/o get penalty that is a issue of player style

[=drake=]

pure tank cant use a bow or dagger weapon w/o get penalty that is a issue of player style

Pure tanks have zero masteries related to bow/dagger except an attack skill at starting game that is generic to all fighters and you absolutey dont use it after level 20...

[=drake=]

no offense but these classes u talk about are not nerfed, they are unplayable at all, when were classes like glad pal any archer/tank any mage/tank godmode?

If you read the changelog, the only differences from 2008 are:
tank/archer: Deflect Arrow (lower range only)
tank/dagger: Deflect Arrow (lower dps) and Shield Fortress (lower critical dps, but is a toggle so you can manage it fully by turning it on/off at will)

So, again, we are down to Deflect Arrow that is a specific skill toward 1 specific target: archers.
So, again, how you can say the tank/archer or tank/dagger is uplayable if is basically the SAME as 2008 when you have Deflect Arrow not active?? (was the most OP and used class at that time. Of course is a class extremely gear dependant)

[Chicks]

You can prove that?
Because we tested it extensively and, if no one uses tattoo there are ZERO issues with aggro management WITHOUT any tattoo, IF your dps friends uses their skills for reduced aggro (all dps classes have at least one and they exists for specifically THIS purpose!)

while this may be true, what buff boost agro power?  On stock mages, without buffs and potions/scrolls, this is probably true. Thing is, AFAIK (maybe it's not the same in IL and I forgot it) but Empower doesn't boost aggression power, nor does Might/etc.

Aggression cannot do magic crits nor crits, right? (Don't answer, it's no.) Archers and mages can. So while normal stuff in an enclosed environment work, in real life, 3-4 crits change the agro almost instantly with low to no chances of come back, with or without tattoo, at least from the empiric tests I made.

My point was and remain : why does a tank need to get a tattoo to be viable, while a mage can easily play stock and still get more agro (from what I saw.)?

Also, in pvp, no tank play without a bow. So subbed or not, it's a nerf. Hit UD, bad boy bad boy, whatcha gonna do?

[Peorexo]

-War Cry: it gives +25% patk (as usual), except it gives only +15% to bows and +10% to daggers.
This!

rly u care about +15% bonus to bow which is fine, but daggers users (mostly -4/8/9 str builds) which leads into 800 patk full buffed/ 600patk in oly, got additional nerf here

Drake no offense but tell me how the f*ck nerfing war cry so much with dagger was so imporant? Atm i have 418 patk without and 439 on war cry (war cry lv1).
Show me tests on th/glad full buff, no dyes, and -9 str, dyes dmg on npc with and without war cry (only this skill). Im wondering why it was so op to reduce pve effect greatly (war cry lv1 gives 5%) and makes it useless there
I'd rather see this have normal bonus +20/25% patk and -5% pvp dmg or smth like this, to dont touch pve atleast

[=drake=]

while this may be true, what buff boost agro power?  On stock mages, without buffs and potions/scrolls, this is probably true. Thing is, AFAIK (maybe it's not the same in IL and I forgot it) but Empower doesn't boost aggression power, nor does Might/etc.
Aggression cannot do magic crits nor crits, right? (Don't answer, it's no.) Archers and mages can. So while normal stuff in an enclosed environment work, in real life, 3-4 crits change the agro almost instantly with low to no chances of come back, with or without tattoo, at least from the empiric tests I made.

As mage/otherdps classes can raise their output in vanilla mode (pure L2) without tattoo but with enchants, you can also raise your aggro power with enchants over it. Every enchant over aggro counts, as aggro related, as a WHOLE set of skills enchanted by same amount from any other dps.
To make it easy: if you get Aggression+1, it compensate for the whole dps set of skills of a mage raised to +1.

If the DPSes get overbuffed from the party and start deal consistent more damage then you COULD have a problem to keep the aggro, thats when enter in the play the AGGRO REDUCTION SKILLS that are specifically designed for this and that every DPS class in the game have. Dagger classes go one step further and they can make the aggro disappear fully and/or make the monster switch current target (to be used when monster is aggroing them, of course... not when aggro is on the tank else they screw up everything)

If not even this is enough, Aggression and Hate Aura have also an extra effect, that lands up to 40% rate that makes the boss switch target to the player/tank regardless of his aggro level.
Of course it scales with the skill level so your chances to have the "40% switch aggro to me" to land is totally dependant between the monster level and your skill level (level 74 skill +0 toward a boss lv80, you will have hard time to have this effect trigger)

To make it short, as your DPSes friends raises the bar by enhancing their skills trough enchants or other ways, to keep up with them you must enhance your aggro too as you are a tank and not "another dps" in the party.
Fill your role.

My point was and remain : why does a tank need to get a tattoo to be viable, while a mage can easily play stock and still get more agro (from what I saw.)?

If the mage used tattoo of mana or matk or mspeed, is not stock at all...
If was really stock (no tattoos) then:
a) tank played really wrong
b) the mage did NOT used the aggro reduction skill (all dps classes have one, regardless if is mage or fighter)

Also, in pvp, no tank play without a bow. So subbed or not, it's a nerf. Hit UD, bad boy bad boy, whatcha gonna do?

UD is not nerfed for bow but for armor type and same applies to all other "powerup pdef" skills of tank.
IF you tank in robe, you have a problem of identity...

so what about these i am gladiator and
-Duelist Spirit: bow/dagger gets an attack speed reduction by 10% while this effect is active
so i get doom in oly or out of town and only chance how to get necro is equip bow, but i get less atk spd?

-War Cry: it gives +25% patk (as usual), except it gives only +15% to bows and +10% to daggers.
This!

You are talking about a glad/archer or glad/dagger.
Our of the scope of the topic (but i will reference it few quotes under)

-Deflect Arrow: (from lv3, also duals gets a reduction up to 20%),
This! , i dont think that gladiator pal was such an OP godmode char when u went out of mana even with pots and u couldnt out damage archer classes when they kite u and run run run 10 miles

It was and still this nerf is specific toward 1 kind of opponent: archer.
The effect is 2 minutes so you can manage it and use it specifically under certain conditions (when YOU are running away for your life)
And archer got already his part of nerf you said before: glad/archer for example dealing less damage.
Also a tank/archer when in "anti archer" mode (Deflect Arrow) it have shorter range toward a more dps oriented archer (archer/dagger for example) or even the glad/archer you mentioned before.



I am shocked that the balance fix that was exposed BEFORE server opening are being complained after more than one month of them running.
This is IL, the players that was on DNET during IL period should quite much remember how was that time and how was the massive reroll toward specific combos (tank/dagger or tank/archer) that was steamrolling the whole game and definitely is not what we want here.

Right now there is no -strongest- combo in the game and we are happy to have achieved that.

There are of course -weak- combos but obviously you can guess them and they stay weak and you simply avoid them or do them for the pure fun of try something different (i could mention RIFT as a game that have similar system)

[lNecropsy]

i dont think that gladiator pal was such an OP godmode char when u went out of mana even with pots and u couldnt out damage archer classes when they kite u and run run run 10 miles

Sometimes you really make me doubt about your habilities...

Glad/Pal was really OP,  a true monster while Angelic Icon was up. I think it still will be a great char now.

[=drake=]

Yeah we had 95% glad pal , damn , mega OP char, nop

TY PAL was OP as hell and  DE PAL too not glad pal LOL

Thats why you cant make them now

[Garn.]

falatko we're talking about tanks here

thank you.

[=drake=]

Garn (but also everyone in the topic), out of curiosity, what would be your solutions? (beside remove all "nerfs" that is not a solution at all and we would end up again with the OP classes WELL KNOWN to everyone who played DNET IL)

I would like to have constructive comments instead of just complains.

[Clonage]

Pure tanks have zero masteries related to bow/dagger except an attack skill at starting game that is generic to all fighters and you absolutey dont use it after level 20...

Wtf ... So what? IF u ever played "Vanilla mode" you would know that not only tanks use Bow but BD/SWS and WC's...
If i want to play Vanilla style here WHY do i get nerfed on a SUB STACK SERVER where any other SUB makes the charecter stronger...

My solution to balance the "nerf" is to let it as it is ATM and make minimum range on Bow 600 range. There's no class on "vanilla" that has 450 range like in Tarantula... It makes 0 sense.