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Is there any topic, or any place, telling all nerfs made on this class?
i mean,

a whole list for all kind of chars would be great too
we all base on IL sites to choose some class, know every "nerf" would be perfect to not do a big mistake.

thanks

-Deflect Arrow: Is no more a long term buff but acts as a "stance effect".
When active, scaling by protection (here written is lv4 = 40% protection), cast speed on robe is reduced by 25%, attack speed with daggers is reduced by 20% (from lv3, also duals gets a reduction up to 20%), blows rate reduced by 20% and bow range by -25%.
Duration of the effect is 2min (easier to manage the negative effects), skill activation reduced by 33% (instant), mp cost reduced by 75% (seems big numbers but scales right ingame)

Ou seja, ativar deflect arrow usando Dual Sword não é muito boa ideia...

Annoucment section ~Follow the sick Rabbit~

Or in particular changelog:
http://forum.dragon-community.net/index.php/topic,278370.msg2433325.html#new

ah, perfect track.. big thanks.

so , all modifications on "retail" client will be there, right?

Quote from: R0gan on February 24, 2014, 04:01:51 PM
ah, perfect track.. big thanks.

so , all modifications on "retail" client will be there, right?

Everything we do or change is there, there are no secret changes without notice.

Quote from: lNecropsy on February 24, 2014, 03:54:44 PM
When active, scaling by protection (here written is lv4 = 40% protection), bow range by -25%.

One additional question... Is skill reduction based on lvl of deflect arrow? Basically does bow range remain the same no matter what da lvl?

Quote from: R0gan on February 24, 2014, 04:01:51 PM
ah, perfect track.. big thanks.

so , all modifications on "retail" client will be there, right?

ha. good luck with that.

deflect arrow changed
banish seraph (SK and DA) useless
Aggression and Hate aura working pretty bad (even a warlord can keep aggro better than a tank here)
is it enough or want more?

Quote from: Garn. on February 24, 2014, 04:18:35 PM
ha. good luck with that.

deflect arrow changed
banish seraph (SK and DA) useless
Aggression and Hate aura working pretty bad (even a warlord can keep aggro better than a tank here)
is it enough or want more?

I saw you tanking Cabrio yesterday, I think it was OK, he changed target maybe 3-4 times only...

On old C4 I was DA and I remember it happened a lot to me, so i'm used to it.
Dunno if on official servers it was different...

On old C4 agro on rbs was working like hell, on IL it became crap. Agro/hate here looks decent comparing to old dnet IL.

Quote from: Blizzer on February 24, 2014, 06:21:31 PM
On old C4 agro on rbs was working like hell, on IL it became crap. Agro/hate here looks decent comparing to old dnet IL.

and admins are aware about this?

Quote from: R0gan on February 24, 2014, 03:52:17 PM
Is there any topic, or any place, telling all nerfs made on this class?
i mean,

a whole list for all kind of chars would be great too
we all base on IL sites to choose some class, know every "nerf" would be perfect to not do a big mistake.

thanks

- guard stance adds only (in robe) shield defense success rate
- tank m def mastery (Magic Resistance) don't stack with Anti Magic

Quote from: R0gan on February 24, 2014, 06:30:46 PM
and admins are aware about this?

That is decenet? Absolutley!

I tried tanking a bit so far, with and without tatoo... frankly? Just one healer overhealing 1-2 heals and your done for, if you're not high lvl with ++ skills. Frankly, it's a little bit retarded atm. Tanks = destro now, and tanks can't do much at anything really. RB? meh, better get an extra destroyer. Train party? Nop. Destroyer/warlord again. Pvp? LoL. Only vs noobs. Exp party? Leecher.
The only use the tank as now is as an initiator to sink the biggest early damage, that he works well at, so he can be used a little bit in an exp party, maybe at high levels.

I tried some stuff, testing on rb without fighters for test purpose and really? As soon as the destroyer lands 3/4 hits, the agro change and it's almsot impossible to make it switch. Same with a healer. We had 2 healers in the team, 1 aggroed at some point, I spammed aggression from half mana to 0 (the rest of my mana was gone from aggression + guard stance) while our second healer healed the first healer (so the healer with the agro would not agro more) and what happend? The second healer got the aggro, not the tank.

I don't know what decent means to you really... I recon it's better then before, but if I have to have a maxed tattoo to do what a tank should be doing? Theres a problem with the system...

A nuker should be able to nuke hard at the cost of mana, thats the job of a nuker, to nuke. They use mana tatoo to nuke more often, to enhance their capacity, not to make them a viable char...

A tank should be able to aggro the ennemy to tank them, at the cost of life and mana, thats the job of a tank, to tank. To tank effectively, we need the tattoo on at all time and even then it's not THAT useful as you need to hit the rb, as using aggression doesn't not trigger an other aggression AFAIK. This means that you have to stop using your aggro spell to attack and maybe have a triggered aggression... It seems counter productive to me. An aggression booster tattoo at the cost of damage/attspeed/wtvr would be a more interesting idea imo, even if it's -50% or more...

The shield wall tattoo is interesting on paper, but I fail to see it's use. To keep the aggro from high dps chars, you need to spam your aggression, you're not allowed to attack much (maybe 1 to 3 auto-attacks between aggressions)

Outside RB, anyway, this tattoo is not very useful if you ask me, as you can allow your mana to go lower (the fight is not constant for 5 mins on  mobs...)

TLDR : Aggression works badly atm and the shield wall tattoo is counterproductive to a normal tank (sword/blunt user).

Quote from: Falatko on February 24, 2014, 07:09:57 PM
deflect arrow nerf is so bad, they should decreased just effect from 40% to 25% in light and 20% in robe instead of decreasing casting/atk spd, nobody will do tank sub , cause is pointless Summoner/Nuker or Summoner/Archer incoming!

:o :o :o :o :o :o
::)

The nerf range on bow could be better done... Nerfs on pure tanks for no reason...

Quote from: Chicks on February 24, 2014, 06:55:29 PM
I tried tanking a bit so far, with and without tatoo... frankly? Just one healer overhealing 1-2 heals and your done for, if you're not high lvl with ++ skills. Frankly, it's a little bit retarded atm. Tanks = destro now, and tanks can't do much at anything really. RB? meh, better get an extra destroyer. Train party? Nop. Destroyer/warlord again. Pvp? LoL. Only vs noobs. Exp party? Leecher.
The only use the tank as now is as an initiator to sink the biggest early damage, that he works well at, so he can be used a little bit in an exp party, maybe at high levels.

I tried some stuff, testing on rb without fighters for test purpose and really? As soon as the destroyer lands 3/4 hits, the agro change and it's almsot impossible to make it switch. Same with a healer. We had 2 healers in the team, 1 aggroed at some point, I spammed aggression from half mana to 0 (the rest of my mana was gone from aggression + guard stance) while our second healer healed the first healer (so the healer with the agro would not agro more) and what happend? The second healer got the aggro, not the tank.

I don't know what decent means to you really... I recon it's better then before, but if I have to have a maxed tattoo to do what a tank should be doing? Theres a problem with the system...

A nuker should be able to nuke hard at the cost of mana, thats the job of a nuker, to nuke. They use mana tatoo to nuke more often, to enhance their capacity, not to make them a viable char...

A tank should be able to aggro the ennemy to tank them, at the cost of life and mana, thats the job of a tank, to tank. To tank effectively, we need the tattoo on at all time and even then it's not THAT useful as you need to hit the rb, as using aggression doesn't not trigger an other aggression AFAIK. This means that you have to stop using your aggro spell to attack and maybe have a triggered aggression... It seems counter productive to me. An aggression booster tattoo at the cost of damage/attspeed/wtvr would be a more interesting idea imo, even if it's -50% or more...

The shield wall tattoo is interesting on paper, but I fail to see it's use. To keep the aggro from high dps chars, you need to spam your aggression, you're not allowed to attack much (maybe 1 to 3 auto-attacks between aggressions)

Outside RB, anyway, this tattoo is not very useful if you ask me, as you can allow your mana to go lower (the fight is not constant for 5 mins on  mobs...)

TLDR : Aggression works badly atm and the shield wall tattoo is counterproductive to a normal tank (sword/blunt user).

word.

Quote from: Blizzer on February 24, 2014, 06:21:31 PM
On old C4 agro on rbs was working like hell, on IL it became crap. Agro/hate here looks decent comparing to old dnet IL.

Quote from: R0gan on February 24, 2014, 06:30:46 PM
and admins are aware about this?

Yes because all aggro skills on our current IL are perfectly aligned with official IL.
The ancient IL we had in 2008 aggro skills was C4
Here we have all aggro skills that are real IL (around 15-25% more effective)

Quote from: Xara on February 24, 2014, 04:18:20 PM
One additional question... Is skill reduction based on lvl of deflect arrow? Basically does bow range remain the same no matter what da lvl?

Bow range is static, other reductions are progressive.

My point about the tattoo being useless stays, IL official or not.

Quote from: Chicks on February 24, 2014, 08:19:15 PM
My point about the tattoo being useless stays, IL official or not.

Which level was the tattoo of WALL you tried?
Aggression from it is quite good if the tattoo is leveled up (up to a max leveled aggression skill, without enchant)
The aggression effect triggers (regardless of tattoo level) every hit on 10% chances (so basically around every 10 hits)
The aggression effect have additionally a "target me" effect (from 25% to 40%, based on tattoo level)

Quote from: Abaddon on February 24, 2014, 06:57:32 PM
- tank m def mastery (Magic Resistance) don't stack with Anti Magic

huge nerf for any mage/tank combos, together with all other nerfs (deflect arrow,ai's, guard stance etc) it makes any mage/tank sub kind of useless, i saw only 1 mage/tank sub and as i know that guy is very disappointed, everyone is making mage/summoner now.

sh/bd and sps/sws also looses very much cuz of this

Wrong, this "nerf" exists on DNET since 2006 and no one ever complained and is a MUST as else ANY mage/fighter combo would have double MDEF than any other mage/mage or fighter/fighter combo.
Dragon have it, Infinity had it, Nightmare had it and so on all the servers that was under DNET.

For your reference, quantity of subclassed characters for each combo:
sagittarius/arcana_lord = 3
spectral_dancer/storm_screamer = 8
phoenix_knight/arcana_lord = 1
titan/doomcryer = 1
mystic_muse/elemental_master = 4
mystic_muse/evas_saint = 8
sword_muse/mystic_muse = 6
sword_muse/evas_saint = 3
shillien_templar/storm_screamer = 1
spectral_dancer/spectral_master = 1
sagittarius/hierophant = 1
elemental_master/evas_saint = 7
archmage/arcana_lord = 2
adventurer/arcana_lord = 1
grand_khavatari/dominator = 2
hell_knight/adventurer = 1
soultaker/cardinal = 2
dominator/doomcryer = 3
spectral_dancer/shillien_saint = 1
dreadnought/sagittarius = 1
arcana_lord/cardinal = 2
spectral_dancer/ghost_sentinel = 1
storm_screamer/spectral_master = 4
evas_templar/sword_muse = 1
titan/grand_khavatari = 2
sword_muse/moonlight_sentinel = 1
arcana_lord/hierophant = 1
archmage/hierophant = 1
adventurer/hierophant = 1
soultaker/hierophant = 1

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 08:12:17 PM
Bow range is static, other reductions are progressive.

Can you please make Minimum Range on Bow 600?...

Quote from: Clonage on February 24, 2014, 08:40:18 PM
Can you please make Minimum Range on Bow 600?...

Alternatively we can leave the range untouched but reduce the critical damage or critical rate from bow itself when the skill is in effect.
for sure one or the other nerf are needed.

just delete tanks class from this game, since u love them so much.

evas_templar/sword_muse = 1    woot?

phoenix_knight/arcana_lord = 1   =O

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 08:31:35 PM
Which level was the tattoo of WALL you tried?
Aggression from it is quite good if the tattoo is leveled up (up to a max leveled aggression skill, without enchant)
The aggression effect triggers (regardless of tattoo level) every hit on 10% chances (so basically around every 10 hits)
The aggression effect have additionally a "target me" effect (from 25% to 40%, based on tattoo level)

Level one, but it's not the point I want to bring. If a char cannot be efficient without a tattoo, don't you think it's a little unfair, compared to, for exemple, a mage or pretty any other char? While a mage will need a tattoo for his mana if he want to STAY in the fight, a tank cannot even tank atm without said tattoo.

Also, it should also trigger on aggression casting, (doubling/stacking the aggression). As I said, it's counter productive for a tank to hit a lot, making this tattoo uninteresting imho.

Also, what use is there to have a - atk speed tattoo, if all that matters is the number of hit? Why would we want to go for this option (if we are a tank that is)?

I admit I don't know about this target me effect, got any documentation on that? Or explain it?

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 08:43:25 PM
Alternatively we can leave the range untouched but reduce the critical damage or critical rate from bow itself when the skill is in effect.
for sure one or the other nerf are needed.

imo. 20% less atack speed, as i see om another cases seems much worse than simple touch a bit on crit rate, or crt power. or even take of a little range.

Quote from: Abaddon on February 24, 2014, 08:56:33 PM
you just confirmed that mage/tank is kinda useless here :D

there is 1 SH/SK, not even one BP/PAL, SPS/TK or SORC/PAL, 1 nuker/tank /~70subs

1 month after server opened....


Anyway, i dont know how this topic became nerf friendly topic, a guy just asked for changelog thats all!!

Leave changes as it is, stop complaining based on fortune telling....

Quote from: Abaddon on February 24, 2014, 08:56:33 PM
you just confirmed that mage/tank is kinda useless here :D

Don't worry you'll see a river of cry about mage tanks pretty soon.

Quote from: Chicks on February 24, 2014, 08:51:26 PM
Level one, but it's not the point I want to bring. If a char cannot be efficient without a tattoo, don't you think it's a little unfair, compared to, for exemple, a mage or pretty any other char? While a mage will need a tattoo for his mana if he want to STAY in the fight, a tank cannot even tank atm without said tattoo.

Try higher level tattoo, tattoos are meant for:
lv1 tattoo = lv20 char
lv2 tattoo = lv40 char
lv3 tattoo = lv60 char
lv4 tattoo = lv70 char
emp tattoo = lv76 char


If the mage becomes more efficient thanks to enchanting skill, you MUST be his equal with your aggression enchanting to keep up the extra aggro he is going to take.

If the mage becomes more efficient thanks to a mana tattoo that let him use more skills, you MUST take a tattoo that let you aggro more times too (thats why exists the aggro tattoo).
Same applies if they use a tattoo to raise their cast speed: with a castspeed+10% means he gonna hit 10% more times.
Thats why aggro tattoo have 10% chances on each hit you deal to raise an "aggro" to balance it out.

To put it simple, in a party of 2 (easier example) with 1 tank and 1 mage.
If the mage is same level as you and have skills all +0, you are ok with your skills +0
If the mage have  dps skills +5, you need aggro skills +5 to compensate him.
If the mage have +10% cast speed from tattoo or any tattoo that let him deal more hits/gain more aggro, you need opposite on your side to counterbalance him.

Quote
Also, it should also trigger on aggression casting, (doubling/stacking the aggression). As I said, it's counter productive for a tank to hit a lot, making this tattoo uninteresting imho.

Is more common to have an autoattack, thats why is on it.
Consider that this tattoo have 10% chance on every hit, compared to the similar Augmentation that have, instead, only 1%.

Quote
I admit I don't know about this target me effect, got any documentation on that? Or explain it?

Yes, basically higher the level of the tattoo, bigger the "aggro points" that get sent to the monster.
Additionally, every WALL tattoo have a % of landing a "switch target to me" over the boss.
The chances scales with the monster level and they have a BASE %.
lv1 tattoo = 26%
lv2 tattoo = 30%
lv3 tattoo = 34%
lv4 tattoo = 38%
emp tattoo = 40%
This base % is the altered by the level of the monster.
Lv3 tattoo, for example, is aimed for a lv70 character, this means that toward a lv70 monster it will have exactly 38% chances to make him switch target fully toward you.
Considering that the aggression rate is 10% on each hit, this translates in a 3.8% chances, every hit, that the target will switch toward you (or, to make it easier, it will switch for sure toward you every +/-28 hits)
As the monster level goes higher the tattoo, the base chances drop by around 5% for each level.

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 08:43:25 PM
Alternatively we can leave the range untouched but reduce the critical damage or critical rate from bow itself when the skill is in effect.
for sure one or the other nerf are needed.

Why would you nerf it that way? If u want to Nerf DD/Tank combos why should you nerf "Pure Tank" combo. Just Let it be the way it is right now but make Minimum Range on Bows 600. The nerf still applys to Archers/Daggers classes with Deflect arrow in effect.

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 09:12:34 PM
Try higher level tattoo, tattoos are meant for:
lv1 tattoo = lv20 char
lv2 tattoo = lv40 char
lv3 tattoo = lv60 char
lv4 tattoo = lv70 char
emp tattoo = lv76 char


If the mage becomes more efficient thanks to enchanting skill, you MUST be his equal with your aggression enchanting to keep up the extra aggro he is going to take.

If the mage becomes more efficient thanks to a mana tattoo that let him use more skills, you MUST take a tattoo that let you aggro more times too (thats why exists the aggro tattoo).
Same applies if they use a tattoo to raise their cast speed: with a castspeed+10% means he gonna hit 10% more times.
Thats why aggro tattoo have 10% chances on each hit you deal to raise an "aggro" to balance it out.

To put it simple, in a party of 2 (easier example) with 1 tank and 1 mage.
If the mage is same level as you and have skills all +0, you are ok with your skills +0
If the mage have  dps skills +5, you need aggro skills +5 to compensate him.
If the mage have +10% cast speed from tattoo or any tattoo that let him deal more hits/gain more aggro, you need opposite on your side to counterbalance him.


Is more common to have an autoattack, thats why is on it.
Consider that this tattoo have 10% chance on every hit, compared to the similar Augmentation that have, instead, only 1%.
Yes, basically higher the level of the tattoo, bigger the "aggro points" that get sent to the monster.
Additionally, every WALL tattoo have a % of landing a "switch target to me" over the boss.
The chances scales with the monster level and they have a BASE %.
lv1 tattoo = 26%
lv2 tattoo = 30%
lv3 tattoo = 34%
lv4 tattoo = 38%
emp tattoo = 40%
This base % is the altered by the level of the monster.
Lv3 tattoo, for example, is aimed for a lv70 character, this means that toward a lv70 monster it will have exactly 38% chances to make him switch target fully toward you.
Considering that the aggression rate is 10% on each hit, this translates in a 3.8% chances, every hit, that the target will switch toward you (or, to make it easier, it will switch for sure toward you every +/-28 hits)
As the monster level goes higher the tattoo, the base chances drop by around 5% for each level.

u really dont get it.

tattooes are meant to be A PLUS, SOME KIND OF HELP. not a MUST. you're trying to tell ppl "ah! you need to use tattoo for your char to be ok!" while in every goddamn server with NO TATTOOES, admin just FIX the skills or class or whatever, not trying to avoid the problem.

Quote from: Garn. on February 24, 2014, 09:25:30 PM
u really dont get it.

tattooes are meant to be A PLUS, SOME KIND OF HELP. not a MUST. you're trying to tell ppl "ah! you need to use tattoo for your char to be ok!" while in every goddamn server with NO TATTOOES, admin just FIX the skills or class or whatever, not trying to avoid the problem.

I think you need to read it again:
IF your party member uses a tattoo and raises his efficiency, then you MUST use too to raise yours.
I concur tattoos are a plus, but if someone raises the bar, you must raise too.
If no one uses tattoos, then you are good without tattoo too.

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 09:29:40 PM
If no one uses tattoos, then you are good without tattoo too.

that's the problem, tanks don't.

Quote from: Garn. on February 24, 2014, 09:30:43 PM
that's the problem, tanks don't.

You can prove that?
Because we tested it extensively and, if no one uses tattoo there are ZERO issues with aggro management WITHOUT any tattoo, IF your dps friends uses their skills for reduced aggro (all dps classes have at least one and they exists for specifically THIS purpose!)

I just dont get what's the reason to nerf "Pure Tank" when they are one step behind with all combos...

Quote from: Clonage on February 24, 2014, 09:53:41 PM
I just dont get what's the reason to nerf "Pure Tank" when they are one step behind with all combos...

Pure tanks are not nerfed.
DPS classes that subclass to a tank to go in godmode are nerfed.

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 10:04:04 PM
Pure tanks are not nerfed.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


u made my day.

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 10:04:04 PM
Pure tanks are not nerfed.
DPS classes that subclass to a tank to go in godmode are nerfed.

pure tank cant use a bow or dagger (like hero dagger xP )weapon w/o get penalty that is a issue of player style

Quote from: ameba40 on February 24, 2014, 10:09:27 PM
pure tank cant use a bow or dagger weapon w/o get penalty that is a issue of player style

Pure tanks have zero masteries related to bow/dagger except an attack skill at starting game that is generic to all fighters and you absolutey dont use it after level 20...

Quote from: Falatko on February 24, 2014, 10:10:03 PM
no offense but these classes u talk about are not nerfed, they are unplayable at all, when were classes like glad pal any archer/tank any mage/tank godmode?

If you read the changelog, the only differences from 2008 are:
tank/archer: Deflect Arrow (lower range only)
tank/dagger: Deflect Arrow (lower dps) and Shield Fortress (lower critical dps, but is a toggle so you can manage it fully by turning it on/off at will)

So, again, we are down to Deflect Arrow that is a specific skill toward 1 specific target: archers.
So, again, how you can say the tank/archer or tank/dagger is uplayable if is basically the SAME as 2008 when you have Deflect Arrow not active?? (was the most OP and used class at that time. Of course is a class extremely gear dependant)

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 09:32:35 PM
You can prove that?
Because we tested it extensively and, if no one uses tattoo there are ZERO issues with aggro management WITHOUT any tattoo, IF your dps friends uses their skills for reduced aggro (all dps classes have at least one and they exists for specifically THIS purpose!)

while this may be true, what buff boost agro power?  On stock mages, without buffs and potions/scrolls, this is probably true. Thing is, AFAIK (maybe it's not the same in IL and I forgot it) but Empower doesn't boost aggression power, nor does Might/etc.

Aggression cannot do magic crits nor crits, right? (Don't answer, it's no.) Archers and mages can. So while normal stuff in an enclosed environment work, in real life, 3-4 crits change the agro almost instantly with low to no chances of come back, with or without tattoo, at least from the empiric tests I made.

My point was and remain : why does a tank need to get a tattoo to be viable, while a mage can easily play stock and still get more agro (from what I saw.)?

Also, in pvp, no tank play without a bow. So subbed or not, it's a nerf. Hit UD, bad boy bad boy, whatcha gonna do?

Quote from: Falatko on February 24, 2014, 10:28:15 PM

-War Cry: it gives +25% patk (as usual), except it gives only +15% to bows and +10% to daggers.
This!

rly u care about +15% bonus to bow which is fine, but daggers users (mostly -4/8/9 str builds) which leads into 800 patk full buffed/ 600patk in oly, got additional nerf here

Drake no offense but tell me how the f*ck nerfing war cry so much with dagger was so imporant? Atm i have 418 patk without and 439 on war cry (war cry lv1).
Show me tests on th/glad full buff, no dyes, and -9 str, dyes dmg on npc with and without war cry (only this skill). Im wondering why it was so op to reduce pve effect greatly (war cry lv1 gives 5%) and makes it useless there
I'd rather see this have normal bonus +20/25% patk and -5% pvp dmg or smth like this, to dont touch pve atleast

Quote from: Chicks on February 24, 2014, 10:20:42 PM
while this may be true, what buff boost agro power?  On stock mages, without buffs and potions/scrolls, this is probably true. Thing is, AFAIK (maybe it's not the same in IL and I forgot it) but Empower doesn't boost aggression power, nor does Might/etc.
Aggression cannot do magic crits nor crits, right? (Don't answer, it's no.) Archers and mages can. So while normal stuff in an enclosed environment work, in real life, 3-4 crits change the agro almost instantly with low to no chances of come back, with or without tattoo, at least from the empiric tests I made.

As mage/otherdps classes can raise their output in vanilla mode (pure L2) without tattoo but with enchants, you can also raise your aggro power with enchants over it. Every enchant over aggro counts, as aggro related, as a WHOLE set of skills enchanted by same amount from any other dps.
To make it easy: if you get Aggression+1, it compensate for the whole dps set of skills of a mage raised to +1.

If the DPSes get overbuffed from the party and start deal consistent more damage then you COULD have a problem to keep the aggro, thats when enter in the play the AGGRO REDUCTION SKILLS that are specifically designed for this and that every DPS class in the game have. Dagger classes go one step further and they can make the aggro disappear fully and/or make the monster switch current target (to be used when monster is aggroing them, of course... not when aggro is on the tank else they screw up everything)

If not even this is enough, Aggression and Hate Aura have also an extra effect, that lands up to 40% rate that makes the boss switch target to the player/tank regardless of his aggro level.
Of course it scales with the skill level so your chances to have the "40% switch aggro to me" to land is totally dependant between the monster level and your skill level (level 74 skill +0 toward a boss lv80, you will have hard time to have this effect trigger)

To make it short, as your DPSes friends raises the bar by enhancing their skills trough enchants or other ways, to keep up with them you must enhance your aggro too as you are a tank and not "another dps" in the party.
Fill your role.

Quote
My point was and remain : why does a tank need to get a tattoo to be viable, while a mage can easily play stock and still get more agro (from what I saw.)?

If the mage used tattoo of mana or matk or mspeed, is not stock at all...
If was really stock (no tattoos) then:
a) tank played really wrong
b) the mage did NOT used the aggro reduction skill (all dps classes have one, regardless if is mage or fighter)

Quote
Also, in pvp, no tank play without a bow. So subbed or not, it's a nerf. Hit UD, bad boy bad boy, whatcha gonna do?

UD is not nerfed for bow but for armor type and same applies to all other "powerup pdef" skills of tank.
IF you tank in robe, you have a problem of identity...

Quote from: Falatko on February 24, 2014, 10:28:15 PM
so what about these i am gladiator and
-Duelist Spirit: bow/dagger gets an attack speed reduction by 10% while this effect is active
so i get doom in oly or out of town and only chance how to get necro is equip bow, but i get less atk spd? :D

Quote
-War Cry: it gives +25% patk (as usual), except it gives only +15% to bows and +10% to daggers.
This!

You are talking about a glad/archer or glad/dagger.
Our of the scope of the topic (but i will reference it few quotes under)

Quote
-Deflect Arrow: (from lv3, also duals gets a reduction up to 20%),
This! , i dont think that gladiator pal was such an OP godmode char when u went out of mana even with pots and u couldnt out damage archer classes when they kite u and run run run 10 miles

It was and still this nerf is specific toward 1 kind of opponent: archer.
The effect is 2 minutes so you can manage it and use it specifically under certain conditions (when YOU are running away for your life)
And archer got already his part of nerf you said before: glad/archer for example dealing less damage.
Also a tank/archer when in "anti archer" mode (Deflect Arrow) it have shorter range toward a more dps oriented archer (archer/dagger for example) or even the glad/archer you mentioned before.



I am shocked that the balance fix that was exposed BEFORE server opening are being complained after more than one month of them running.
This is IL, the players that was on DNET during IL period should quite much remember how was that time and how was the massive reroll toward specific combos (tank/dagger or tank/archer) that was steamrolling the whole game and definitely is not what we want here.

Right now there is no -strongest- combo in the game and we are happy to have achieved that.

There are of course -weak- combos but obviously you can guess them and they stay weak and you simply avoid them or do them for the pure fun of try something different (i could mention RIFT as a game that have similar system)

Quote from: Falatko on February 24, 2014, 10:28:15 PM
i dont think that gladiator pal was such an OP godmode char when u went out of mana even with pots and u couldnt out damage archer classes when they kite u and run run run 10 miles

Sometimes you really make me doubt about your habilities...

Glad/Pal was really OP,  a true monster while Angelic Icon was up. I think it still will be a great char now.

Quote from: Falatko on February 24, 2014, 10:50:20 PM
Yeah we had 95% glad pal , damn , mega OP char, nop

TY PAL was OP as hell and  DE PAL too not glad pal LOL

Thats why you cant make them now :)

falatko we're talking about tanks here

thank you.

Garn (but also everyone in the topic), out of curiosity, what would be your solutions? (beside remove all "nerfs" that is not a solution at all and we would end up again with the OP classes WELL KNOWN to everyone who played DNET IL)

I would like to have constructive comments instead of just complains.

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 10:11:48 PM
Pure tanks have zero masteries related to bow/dagger except an attack skill at starting game that is generic to all fighters and you absolutey dont use it after level 20...

Wtf ... So what? IF u ever played "Vanilla mode" you would know that not only tanks use Bow but BD/SWS and WC's...
If i want to play Vanilla style here WHY do i get nerfed on a SUB STACK SERVER where any other SUB makes the charecter stronger...

My solution to balance the "nerf" is to let it as it is ATM and make minimum range on Bow 600 range. There's no class on "vanilla" that has 450 range like in Tarantula... It makes 0 sense.

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 11:02:18 PM
Garn (but also everyone in the topic), out of curiosity, what would be your solutions? (beside remove all "nerfs" that is not a solution at all and we would end up again with the OP classes WELL KNOWN to everyone who played DNET IL)

I would like to have constructive comments instead of just complains.

I didnt think of few skills nerfed cuz i really didnt care about that in pvp cuz of buff slots and overbuff (war cry case) but i forgot that this nerfs affect pve as well, i do care now :D
Imo War cry should remain untouched with patk bonus, but should got -pvp dmg with bow/dagger as compensate (%bonus in overall in pvp should remain the same)

Quote from: Falatko on February 24, 2014, 11:05:56 PM
Since i went out of topic , as always, i am askign why there is this 25% PVP Reduction again, when subclass does not increase your damage with 70% of sub, only few combos have their damage increased, maybe change it into 15% at least?

Can be, we will see.
On 2008 IL we had 40% reduction, we already reduced it to 25% when we opened the server.
We need first to see once everyone reaches lv80 and full equipment before really know if can be reduced more or not.

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 11:02:18 PM
Garn (but also everyone in the topic), out of curiosity, what would be your solutions? (beside remove all "nerfs" that is not a solution at all and we would end up again with the OP classes WELL KNOWN to everyone who played DNET IL)

I would like to have constructive comments instead of just complains.

im not saying about removing nerfs, just need to make that char a bit more playable, really, it's pretty much useless right now.
for example reduce the % of nerfs (like, dont know, bow range with deflect 750 range, guard stance -instead of no pdef for robe and light - just lower pdef bonus, UD in robe/light - raise a bit AT LEAST mdef, it's very low bonus right now) this is an example.

since nuker/summoner or fighter/summoner dont have any kind of huge nerf (they actually get a bonus and this is: -Erase: chances of effect changed from 60% to 50% (landing remains 80%). Reuse now is base 60sec instead of 32sec.)

Quote from: Garn. on February 24, 2014, 11:14:32 PM
guard stance -instead of no pdef for robe and light - just lower pdef bonus, UD in robe/light - raise a bit AT LEAST mdef, it's very low bonus right now) this is an example.

But why raise tankiness when not using tank equipment?

I would prefer things that makes tank more "ok" when used as a "tank" and not as a mage or as a light armor user.

The assignment of armors should be quite caracteristic in the game:
Heavy = tanking fighter (can be also tank/buffer or tank/healer)
Light = dps fighter
Robe = caster

To boost tanking skill toward armors that are not tank specific you strip out the tank caracteristic from that armor.

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 11:02:18 PM
Garn (but also everyone in the topic), out of curiosity, what would be your solutions? (beside remove all "nerfs" that is not a solution at all and we would end up again with the OP classes WELL KNOWN to everyone who played DNET IL)

I would like to have constructive comments instead of just complains.

I am not complainning about nerfs in any post, i think some nerfs are necessary to avoind unbalance, or OP chars.
Mutants off - perfect, it was a freak unbalance.

deflect arrow...
lets think...

in the beginning of server, mages > all.. cuz noone focus in jewels, always weapon and armors..
i a near future, archer will domain it as the main killers for sure.

bringing down deflect arrow ill make them even dangerous..
lets say, a party with 1 tanker, 3 suports and some DDs... all subbed.
no tank will make tank / tank right?

tank/th,glad,bd,wk,pal,etc in all cases (less pal i think) tank cant use this skill in pvp to defend himself and his PT. imo, will be a big cut in the near future, cuz hardly someone will use this skill.. ok, its about use it in right time, etc etc.. i understand it,... but since in future will be dracos bow +11. 12,, 14...

lets see how hard they will rape everyone..

not  a complain, just my cents

I feel like im being ignored since no one has said why my opinion is bad at all.

right now, hallates being killed, tank cant keep the agro.. just on beggining :>

Quote from: R0gan on February 24, 2014, 11:36:41 PM
i a near future, archer will domain it as the main killers for sure.

bringing down deflect arrow ill make them even dangerous..
lets say, a party with 1 tanker, 3 suports and some DDs... all subbed.
no tank will make tank / tank right?

tank/th,glad,bd,wk,pal,etc in all cases (less pal i think) tank cant use this skill in pvp to defend himself and his PT. imo, will be a big cut in the near future, cuz hardly someone will use this skill.. ok, its about use it in right time, etc etc.. i understand it,... but since in future will be dracos bow +11. 12,, 14...
lets see how hard they will rape everyone..

Thats to be seen first.
In the past the best archer was the tank/archer that thanks to this skill could kill all other archers with ease without problems while gaining nearly full advantage (all minus the shield) of the tank.
Right now, staying strictly on fighters, archer is better used with light equipment and best combo (for pure dps as a fighter) is archer/dagger (full sinergy, fully played in light armor, and deadly in both long range and close range)

Quote from: Clonage on February 24, 2014, 11:44:48 PM
I feel like im being ignored since no one has said why my opinion is bad at all.

I have issues in putting a limiter of 600 min range as it freaks up with debuffs that reduces your range.

Quote from: R0gan on February 24, 2014, 11:46:23 PM
right night, hallates being killed, tank cant keep the agro.. just on beggining :>

- Do the DPSes are using ANTI AGGRO skills or stucked on F1 with stone over it while being afk? Tell them to put that skill on F2 and slide the stone a bit more right to press them both.

- Do there is any aggro control or everyone goes toward pure dps, tank included (both enchants and tattoo, as i guess everyone in that party for sure have at least an enchanted skill and probably is equipping a tattoo)?

- The Dagger classes are using trick/switch to make everything a mess when they should not use them?

- Again, do there is any aggro control or the buffers/healers are just spamming?

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 11:51:28 PM
Thats to be seen first.
In the past the best archer was the tank/archer that thanks to this skill could kill all other archers with ease without problems while gaining nearly full advantage (all minus the shield) of the tank.
Right now, staying strictly on fighters, archer is better used with light equipment and best combo (for pure dps as a fighter) is archer/dagger (full sinergy, fully played in light armor, and deadly in both long range and close range)

i understand your point.
maybe you should do something like...
nerf the deflect arrow, instead nerf another skills.

at this way , for gladiator as example (i am dwarf.. so, im not gladiator ok?), if he uses it, 20% less atack speed. no gladiator will use it ever... its too much...

why not something like....

Default:
Deflect Arrow 1   Bow Damage -16%
Deflect Arrow 2   Bow Damage -24%
Deflect Arrow 3   Bow Damage -32%
Deflect Arrow 4   Bow Damage -40%

If you use a fighter sword or blunt (1 handed) + heavy = full Deflect arrow as above.

if char is on robe or light, or even with another weapon that is not a fighter sword or blunt one handed just cut it 1/3, or even 1/4
on high level will be 13,33% of bow defense,,

its a start idea.

what do u think about this?

Quote from: TheBlackPhoenix on February 24, 2014, 11:55:10 PM
For anti-aggro skills you mean skills with lower Power?

All DPS classes (or most of them) have skills that, when casted, reduces the aggro accumulated or removes the target+delete the hate toward the actual target.

The ones that reduce the aggro are the ones to use WHILE the aggro is on the tank.
In case the boss switches target to one of the DPS, some classes have a chance to make the boss lose the target+aggro and in that case JUST the tank should be attacking to recover the hate (use TS or something to sincronize) because most of them reset aggro of everyone down to zero (example: Trick)
The skills that removes aggro+target should NEVER be used while the tank is tanking and keeping aggro as you basically screw him up.

How about checking Passives?
IF char has Long Shot = apply bow range nerf.
IF char doesnt have Long Shot , do not apply bow range nerf.

Quote from: Clonage on February 25, 2014, 12:28:38 AM
How about checking Passives?
IF char has Long Shot = apply bow range nerf.
IF char doesnt have Long Shot , do not apply bow range nerf.

I would dream that, IL engine is quite limited and cant have so complex radication over a single effect...

And it's funny how Agro doesnt even land properly in PvP.... I'm Lvl 77 tested vs a Lvl 70 char. Agro doesnt land even 50% of the time... Tanks are useless Period. Time to Reroll.

Drake... Comon... Obviously I ment UD + reflect arrow, to block the other dude, also using a bow... Who the freak just stands there and take hits from a bow without doing anything? either they run out of range (taking more arrow when they'll come back, not that smart), or fight back with a bow of their own (where your reflect arrow nerf freaks the tank who initially used his UD).

IMO it should react have a raven with the bow mastery, not with the skill reflect arrows by itself. Tanks can pvp with a bow, if used well and if that nerf is removed. Find reflect arrow and bow mastery on a char? Fine, nerf it if you want. I disagree with the idea, but I can see why it's needed for balance sake. Current setup, thought, is not the good way to go...

EDIT : I saw that it's apparently hard to make complicated conditions in IL, but I kept the text unchanged in case someone started to reply/in case it sparked an idea.

It is a direct nerf to the tank class, as you discourage him from using a weapon that he already has no mastery toward... even if it's just for 2 mins...

Lets compare : A tank use UD and switch to his bow to outrange his enemy (lets say a dagger, or a warlord, or any other char other than a tank..., TH lets say for the example). TH switch to bow, to hit the tank while staying far from the tank's more powerful shield + sword combo while he's on UD. Tank use reflect damage to mitigate the damage, since well it's in his skill set for a reason..., gets nerfed for using his bow/reflect damage... While it's true that it nerfs tanks/archers, it also nerf the tank directly, no matter how you put it.

This is, of course, the lesser of the cases, where the other char is not an archer (I excluse mages here because why would you activate reflect arrow vs a mage... Well summoners could use a bow... Hey this give me an idea! HE/WK is strong, lets nerf bow damage when transfer pain is active! AINT THAT NICE? it's the exact same issue here... Minus the fact that the tank has more advantage in having a bow then a WK does...)

Now lets talk, briefly, about tanks vs archers. I'm talking stock classes here, not subbed. Tank use UD because the fukin archer keep moving anyway. Archer move out of range, so tank use reflect arrow while in UD to mitigate the damage. UD is over, reflect arrow is still on... Tanks got a massive disadvantage toward a logical move. While he does tank more damage, he also can't do shit to the archer, and will probably die in the end, in part due to that nerf that he wouldn't have in your IL original servers. The only way for a tank to be able to make pvp's viably is to allow him to use a bow without penalty. Otherwise, tanks cannot pvp alone but only in groups (and even there...). Don't nerf a class just because not many people play them and that they make(or made?) some very strong combos... . If it's not the intention, it surely looks like it.

About agro : fine, everyone other then the tank fail hard since they never use that agro reduction skill. Suits me.

Edit 2 : Freak = fuc k. Thats censor doe...

What about transform Deflect Arrow in a TOGGLE? (with a cooldown of 2-3 seconds between toggles else too easy to macro it)

Quote from: =drake= on February 25, 2014, 01:03:17 AM
What about transform Deflect Arrow in a TOGGLE? (with a cooldown of 2-3 seconds between toggles else too easy to macro it)

it could still be exploitable I think, just less due to longer cooldown. I prefer the toggle idea than the current setup though. Make it toggle with 30 sec cd at least. That way we need to actually think about it. This would also eliminate the need to stop and rebuff in the middle of a fight. This only helps vs archers or people who move out of range. If they stay and fight, we still got our skill nerfed because a combo is op.

Quote from: Clonage on February 25, 2014, 12:55:19 AM
And it's funny how Agro doesnt even land properly in PvP.... I'm Lvl 77 tested vs a Lvl 70 char. Agro doesnt land even 50% of the time... Tanks are useless Period. Time to Reroll.

Not true. It worked 100% of the time for me (lvl 60) vs a friend (lvl 76). The way it works is lame, as spamming the attack button almost completely remove the aggro attempt (if you use it well, which is kinda lame. Hit attack too fast and it returns to your previous target, dead or alive). It does make the target freeze in place a bit, so it's something. Also, if you use it before he use a skill, your target might get freaked and use his skill on you instead. This is very good vs mages, less vs figthers.

Quote from: =drake= on February 25, 2014, 01:03:17 AM
What about transform Deflect Arrow in a TOGGLE? (with a cooldown of 2-3 seconds between toggles else too easy to macro it)

like it, for sure much better then now

Quote from: Chicks on February 25, 2014, 01:13:14 AM
Not true. It worked 100% of the time for me (lvl 60) vs a friend (lvl 76). The way it works is lame, as spamming the attack button almost completely remove the aggro attempt (if you use it well, which is kinda lame. Hit attack too fast and it returns to your previous target, dead or alive). It does make the target freeze in place a bit, so it's something. Also, if you use it before he use a skill, your target might get freaked and use his skill on you instead. This is very good vs mages, less vs figthers.

So you're calling me a lier, uh? It's not the 1st time i've tested it. We just pvp'ed in barakiel vs mages guess how many i agro'ed :D 1 or 2 with Aura hate, with Single target agression none. In NO server this ever happened to me(C4, Interlude, hellbound, you name it).
Im wasting my time on a fvcked up char.
Peace cya tomorow.

Quote from: Clonage on February 25, 2014, 01:23:38 AM
So you're calling me a lier, uh? It's not the 1st time i've tested it. We just pvp'ed in barakiel vs mages guess how many i agro'ed :D 1 or 2 with Aura hate, with Single target agression none. In NO server this ever happened to me(C4, Interlude, hellbound, you name it).
Im wasting my time on a fvcked up char.
Peace cya tomorow.

you said it worked badly, so you might just not know how the spell work. The premise of a lie is to know the truth, but not saying it. I'm saying you're unlucky at best, or you miss interpreted how agro works, thus the rest of my post.

Quote from: Chicks on February 25, 2014, 02:14:15 AM


you said it worked badly, so you might just not know how the spell work. The premise of a lie is to know the truth, but not saying it. I'm saying you're unlucky at best, or you miss interpreted how agro works, thus the rest of my post.

Ill post some videos tomorow from L2off Interlude on Erica Server.

Quote from: Chicks on February 25, 2014, 12:57:29 AM
Drake... Comon... Obviously I ment UD + reflect arrow, to block the other dude, also using a bow... Who the freak just stands there and take hits from a bow without doing anything? either they run out of range (taking more arrow when they'll come back, not that smart), or fight back with a bow of their own (where your reflect arrow nerf freaks the tank who initially used his UD).

Against an archer the choice of UD itself aint really the best as, by CLEAN tank vs CLEAN archer he would still have higher range than you and he would just stand outside our your danger area and shot you down (slowly) from his 1500 range.

You want comparison of subclassed chars?
Tank/Dagger vs Archer/PP, same... Archer will outshot you from his range even without the nerf.
In fact anything/tank (that is not archer/tank) will be outranged by any archer/anything (included archer/tank).
So by default UD is not the good choice VS a ranger (except if the ranger is dumb or you have some territory advantage that forces him to enter in your danger zone before being able to attack. But this second condition is really RARE in L2)

What if you dont use UD and just DeflectArrow?
Perfect. You just need to get in the short range and when he is under 60 you can use all your melee skills and when he gets over 60 (but under 450) you can switch fast your weapon and use your bow too while he deals half the damage with his bow (that he mastered)
And if you are a Archer/Tank? Well. your range is even higher than that so THEN you can do the UD trick and go in "turret mode" (without the DeflectArrow) and have his same range but with the extreme advantage that he deals to you 1/3 of the damage you deal to him (except if he is also in UD)
Archers are already dealing much less damage as you are in UD, when UD worns off try rush while putting DeflectArrow so you can get additional damage reduction (this is the concept on how we designed the current skill)


And what if is Archer/Tank vs Archer/Tank? Simple: the first one that uses UD AND Deflect together is screwed, so should be carefully managed.
Separately? fully manageable (as you can move).


Maybe the toggle could be really the best solution (in fact, before opening the server, i made the toggle version too) but I dont really like the fact that is not "cancellable"...

Drake since 10 years You do all the time EXACTLY the same mistake.
You listen cryiers too much.

One change/nerf - and You will have next river of tears, couse other class will feel fuked. Later next one, and next one...neverending story.

Didn't really read the whole topic but about deflect arrow, u could make it toggle that has like 5-10 cooldown upon pressing it

Quote from: stanko on February 25, 2014, 11:34:50 AM
Didn't really read the whole topic but about deflect arrow, u could make it toggle that has like 5-10 cooldown upon pressing it

The toggle ideia is good. But the agro feels really broken. In no server when you agro a mob and root it, the mob still hits the closes target. Either it's the mob AI thats broken or the agro. As i said yesterday when i get home i will post a video from L2off showing how agro works in PvP.

Quote from: =drake= on February 25, 2014, 04:44:44 AM
Against an archer the choice of UD itself aint really the best as, by CLEAN tank vs CLEAN archer he would still have higher range than you and he would just stand outside our your danger area and shot you down (slowly) from his 1500 range.

excuse me?

LoL. UD mitigate the damage well enough to allow a tank to regen, even passively with pots. It also buy time to let (exemple) TOL or vengance to come back. The point of UD being a good move or not seems like an excuse to me. If the archer run out of your range, you still lay down 2-3 arrows, enough to compensate his damage while on UD. It's a decision you make based on the situation in the fight. Close to die and TOL is on it's way? better UD and come back full hp.

Only deflect arrow = perfect? Did you miss the part where the tank switched to bow weapon? The landing rate of entangle/roots on a dude with boss jewels is horrible, with the spell boosted or not (even if you had empower + a wep + empower++ you'd still get a fairly low landing rate). And the only time a tank can catch up with an archer is when the archer hit back. That little downtime in running is our chance of landing a root/stun.. Switching to a bow remove that advantage and while it may be a good idea, with reflect arrow it turns sour. So he'll just kite you to oblivion... Anyway got to go to work, but your point is flawed. Did you ever play tank classes drake?

Admin explaining basics of pvp lol  ;D
Deflect arrow as toogle (10 sec cooldown) would be much better than now.

As you can see in this video http://youtu.be/eQ1iLQrV8GU?t=23m47s Tanks with agression can force target and also force attack on the Tank. In Tarantula this is not possible, atleast from all the tests i've done with a clan mate, all first agros will only force target and never force attack. We even tested pressing down "F1"(on another target) while getting agro'ed and still doesnt force attack on tank.

OGUS CAKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Clonage on February 25, 2014, 06:50:00 PM
As you can see in this video http://youtu.be/eQ1iLQrV8GU?t=23m47s Tanks with agression can force target and also force attack on the Tank. In Tarantula this is not possible, atleast from all the tests i've done with a clan mate, all first agros will only force target and never force attack. We even tested pressing down "F1"(on another target) while getting agro'ed and still doesnt force attack on tank.

Wanna see how GMs will do this. Will be TU story all over again, they only care about what they have, and don't beleive what even videos show from Interlude in official. So stupid...
And your right, agression is wrong in the part that it doesn't force attacks. I've tested it also myself with a clannie :)

Quote from: Clonage on February 25, 2014, 06:50:00 PM
As you can see in this video http://youtu.be/eQ1iLQrV8GU?t=23m47s Tanks with agression can force target and also force attack on the Tank. In Tarantula this is not possible, atleast from all the tests i've done with a clan mate, all first agros will only force target and never force attack. We even tested pressing down "F1"(on another target) while getting agro'ed and still doesnt force attack on tank.

Nice, but it never worked like that in dragon (only briefly and they nerfed it afterward if I recall, but it's been so long that I may very well be wrong on that). Not that it shouldn't. Quite happy that you're right, tbh :)

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 10:04:04 PM
Pure tanks are not nerfed.
DPS classes that subclass to a tank to go in godmode are nerfed.

and what about the skill = "banish undead" ?  landing rate of this skill is like 5times per 1 buffs (20min) which looks like 10% = this skill is totaly USELESS. Means = I can't exp alone.
You will say, I have to play in party, but nobody wants me in party (leaching exp, doing no dmg). I can't even agro mobs while we want to train in cata, coz when Destro hits 3-4times, my agro is useles (destro doesn't need tatoo to be better then me to over-agro tank, he just need full-buff).
The only think which works on tank is Shackle, that is all I can do - root mobs.

Quote from: =drake= on February 24, 2014, 11:02:18 PM
Garn (but also everyone in the topic), out of curiosity, what would be your solutions? (beside remove all "nerfs" that is not a solution at all and we would end up again with the OP classes WELL KNOWN to everyone who played DNET IL)

I would like to have constructive comments instead of just complains.

Make Tanks playable on PVE and don't destroy the point of the char = tanking
- rise the landing rate of banish undead skill (it is pure PVE skill)
- do something with the agression on RBs > 3x Destro in party = You will never ever reagro RB (or at cost of all mana) but make tanking impossilbe to other chars... even prophet can tank RB, while runnig around his party (of archers for example) and i'm not talking about archers or destros  who are tanking most of the time. almost noone is using tank for RBs, means TANK=dead char - no reason to play it...

Quote from: Feariel on February 26, 2014, 12:35:47 AM
and what about the skill = "banish undead" ?  landing rate of this skill is like 5times per 1 buffs (20min) which looks like 10% = this skill is totaly USELESS. Means = I can't exp alone.
You will say, I have to play in party, but nobody wants me in party (leaching exp, doing no dmg). I can't even agro mobs while we want to train in cata, coz when Destro hits 3-4times, my agro is useles (destro doesn't need tatoo to be better then me to over-agro tank, he just need full-buff).
The only think which works on tank is Shackle, that is all I can do - root mobs. Make Tanks playable on PVE and don't destroy the point of the char = tanking
- rise the landing rate of banish undead skill (it is pure PVE skill)
- do something with the agression on RBs > 3x Destro in party = You will never ever reagro RB (or at cost of all mana) but make tanking impossilbe to other chars... even prophet can tank RB, while runnig around his party (of archers for example) and i'm not talking about archers or destros  who are tanking most of the time. almost noone is using tank for RBs, means TANK=dead char - no reason to play it...

Wasn't banish fixed? Anyway I play TK so I could hardly tell how aweful that landing rate must be.... :P

Quote from: Chicks on February 26, 2014, 03:33:05 AM
Wasn't banish fixed? Anyway I play TK so I could hardly tell how aweful that landing rate must be.... :P

fixed? you mean nerfed maybe....it's totally useless now. like someone said, it's a pure pve skill which doesnt work for pve at the moment.

Quote from: Garn. on February 26, 2014, 10:28:02 AM
fixed? you mean nerfed maybe....it's totally useless now. like someone said, it's a pure pve skill which doesnt work for pve at the moment.

same were telling all bp/ee.

freaking Interlude...

Heres some interesting facts:

Tanks cant keep agro/agro isnt autoatctking(no chance whatsoeever)
Tanks are useless unless you sub them WL for Stuns, and even so...meh.
Any Mage/tank sux unless you make sorc/da or necro/da for extra drain HP, cause of the all OP nerfs. Even bishop/pal that was a cool sub sux now, no extra defenses, nothing. Server will be sh/PS, SH/BD and sps/es full in less then 2 months, no point on making tanks on subs whatsoever or even play as main because of the fcked up agro.

Sad story, but true, keep it on you "retail-like-IL files" like you did for TU that doesnt even land on lvl 74 in pagans(where countless retail-IL videos were showed to u) and youwill have a great future...destroying Tanks and TU skill.

P.S: TU rates are fine when u +1 them. The only problem is u not beeing able to lethal at all with 74 lvl skill. Whatever this thread about tanks.

Quote from: NunoPitbull on February 26, 2014, 03:06:02 PM
Heres some interesting facts:

Tanks cant keep agro/agro isnt autoatctking(no chance whatsoeever)
Tanks are useless unless you sub them WL for Stuns, and even so...meh.
Any Mage/tank sux unless you make sorc/da or necro/da for extra drain HP, cause of the all OP nerfs. Even bishop/pal that was a cool sub sux now, no extra defenses, nothing. Server will be sh/PS, SH/BD and sps/es full in less then 2 months, no point on making tanks on subs whatsoever or even play as main because of the fcked up agro.

Sad story, but true, keep it on you "retail-like-IL files" like you did for TU that doesnt even land on lvl 74 in pagans(where countless retail-IL videos were showed to u) and youwill have a great future...destroying Tanks and TU skill.

P.S: TU rates are fine when u +1 them. The only problem is u not beeing able to lethal at all with 74 lvl skill. Whatever this thread about tanks.

Wonna play tank , go dragon server ...

Quote from: zocha on February 26, 2014, 03:52:35 PM
Wonna play tank , go dragon server ...

stupid answer.

All classes should be playable.

Deflect Arrow just SUCKS VERY HARD now.

But still, nobody knows how its gonna be in the future, and ppl are just crying before know it for sure.

Remember that xx/tanker have Party UD, and you can make a full buffed party +4-5 tanks and have 1min+ party UD. And still have UD and vengeace.
Tanker still a good sub for mages and archers.

And for daggers or glads, I dont think they really need deflect arrow to kill an archer.

I believe in balance.

lol pty ud SoF its interlude not ct1

Quote from: Abaddon on February 26, 2014, 04:41:03 PM
its interlude u know that ? "pro players"

my mistake =/

Its all confusing since i stopped playing long time ago.

Well..dunno then..

I think the best option would be -Reduce deflect arrow effect
ex: if using bows, instead of 40%, only 20%
If using Robes, the sabe...

My point about nerfing TP is still there though. Since it makes archers/summoners OP, lets nerf all summoners, as it's less played then archers. Would that make sense? No? Then why should it makes sense when it's for tanks? Because it is a clear nerf to our capacity to deal damage, which is already pretty low compared to any other classe (hell even PP and bp gets better dps lol)... (yes, this may be slightly exaggerated, but really just slightly, I didn't test it...)

Quote from: zocha on February 26, 2014, 03:52:35 PM
Wonna play tank , go in any other server than this ...

fixed.

Quote from: Garn. on February 26, 2014, 05:24:58 PM
fixed.

indeed, even dragon don't show no love for the tanks...

I'll still roll tk/es here, but I don't think i'll end up tanking anything outside exp parties (<3 merrow)

Tank is also an extremely gear-based class, we will see how it goes once better equipment is getting used.

Quote from: =drake= on February 26, 2014, 08:02:38 PM
Tank is also an extremely gear-based class, we will see how it goes once better equipment is getting used.

You could have a FB+75+F+hp+haste if you want, aggression wouldn't agro more.

And it's also completely irrelevant, as a whole, to the fact that a single class is being nerfed because of a combo that is considered OP.

But yeah, let's see in 3 month, when people forgot the issue, how a nerf will magically turn up into .... Well a nerf. But hey! Let the heat go down, so  no one outside pure tankers will care/remember the issue. Smart PR move.

Quote from: =drake= on February 26, 2014, 08:02:38 PM
Tank is also an extremely gear-based class, we will see how it goes once better equipment is getting used.

probably we won't see that, because there is no need to play tank in this conditions...
for example, I'm goiong to make rerol from PAL to SWS just because it is useless and unplayable char :-/

Quote from: Feariel on February 27, 2014, 12:36:03 AM
probably we won't see that, because there is no need to play tank in this conditions...
for example, I'm goiong to make rerol from PAL to SWS just because it is useless and unplayable char :-/

The problem is more that it's overall pretty retarded... ALL class will have ++ items.... Actually the only difference is that if theres no tanks now, there won't be any ++ armors to buy for tanks, while you'll see +6 robes sets on every normal mages...

Same goes for weapons... why the freak ++ a sword, when the only use you can see to a sword is basically to be part of a craft (duals), where ++ won't matter? Because why would you try to waste enchant on something that can hardly be sold? After all, only some glads (lol), SWS (lol again) and Tanks (who may as well be innexistant in the current state of the class) will use them (Destro would logically go for a blunt, just like the glad would if he want a 1h wep). Also, while blunts have more use and can be used bu tanks, they are a bad choices for dps tanks due to such a low crit rate, so yeah. Back to square 1. Enchant your wep at a loss, or play with low lvl items.

Now it's true that bows will be well enchanted, but would you pay so much for a side arm mainly used in situational pvp's only? Maybe, and even if you do, your enemy will probably have the same/more because well he has more cash. Cuz you know, he's useful in RB parties and get some loots that the tank can't access without A)Paying or B)Rerolling???

as i said before.

if deflect arrow is the problem.

nerf deflect arrow based on weapon /set.

heavy + fighter weapon (blunt or sword 1 handed) = full deflect arrow
in all another cases (robe, light, duals, bow, etc)... 1/4 of deflect arrow.. no GOdmode on.. just 10% defense against bow.

u dont need to nerf atack speed, crit power, etc etc etc. make this big circus about it..
just nerf the REAL problem.

Quote from: R0gan on February 27, 2014, 01:55:49 AM
as i said before.

if deflect arrow is the problem.

nerf deflect arrow based on weapon /set.

heavy + fighter weapon (blunt or sword 1 handed) = full deflect arrow
in all another cases (robe, light, duals, bow, etc)... 1/4 of deflect arrow.. no GOdmode on.. just 10% defense against bow.

u dont need to nerf atack speed, crit power, etc etc etc. make this big circus about it..
just nerf the REAL problem.

So a tank cannot use a bow as secondary weapon as opposed to... any other classes? Sorry, he can, under limitations, aka a nerf. The real problem is that if you make deflect arrow react to the weapon you use, you actually apply a limitation to the class itself, not to the problem, which is the archer/tank combo. Make it nerfed if you have a bow and have the bow mastery as a passive, maybe?  (But I think that's too complex?) Or, at least, make it a toggle with a 20-30 sec cd, so you can't just macro it. It's still a nerf, but a less big one (as you can decide if it's worth switching to bow and react accordingly, as opposed to be nerfed for 2 mins if the situation change unexpectedly and you now need a bow...)

Quote from: Falatko on February 26, 2014, 10:19:42 PM
you should  do changes like:
Put Guard Stance working with all type of all armors to give p def - heavy 100% effect Light or robe 50%, it still takes a lot of mana to have it ON.
Remove deflect arrow nerf at all, archer still is very strong against any nuker/tank sub , because he just attack and can kite with bigger range. About daggers, there were not that many tank/dagger and they still can pwn whole party cause they go OOM so fast.
Majesty add 15% pdef as I know. Put it fully working with any Armor type , cause +15% in robe is not that big win anyway.

This is the problem, your ideas brings nothing to purely played tanks and they are just blurring out the line between tank=heavy and light/robe=others
If you wanna tank you must use heavy armor, not a robe/light set.

Hi leo.

Quote from: Falatko on February 27, 2014, 03:51:06 AM
but what do u mean purely play tanks, here is stack sub and people put that sub to survive more in fights, i said just decrease effect and not put like u did - atk spd casting spd and stuff,it is no point to play tank at al.When u see people here, nobody playing tank and guys are going to reroll, what is pure tank if i can ask, what do u mean just pure tank? single DA PAL SK TK yes, but with stack sub, they are just used as defensive stances.

To enter in that definition is enough any "tank subclassed" character played in heavy armor.
So basically anything with class (or subclass) of tank and not played in robe/light.
PAL/WL, DA/WL, DA/TH few examples, but even DA/PP or PAL/PP (played in heavy) etc...

Tank skills must go toward that and not a mage/tank in robe with shield...
mage/tank in robe should yes get some benefit from shield proficiencies (and they do) but nearly "glass-cannonish" compared to a real heavy armorly played tank.

Quote from: Falatko on February 27, 2014, 04:23:48 AM
but still is jus low bonus for them, mages with tank subclass does not get such a benefit as Heavy armor mastery class,
There is no point to nerf deflect arrow that it will be decreasing cast spd atk spd and so on, you have to see what classes u got on server and what people say, there are not anymore TAnk/nuker Tank/archer Tank/dds because is not worth at all to play it when elders/summoners dominate them in olympiad, out of town, sieges, rbs etc

We are doing internal tests on that purpose but dont forget that summon is "as is", beside enchanting the skill the summon gain zero benefits from equipment so is already "maxed out".

How about a nerf onthe bow dmg reduction to the deflect arrow effect.
For example: mage weapons 10% nerf on effect, bows -15%, daggers -5% light -10% and robe -10% (as they have less p def and mostly have mage weapon)
It's just an idea/suggestion, i didnt think that much on numbers.
Just theory crafting.

drake plz just listen to what players wants, and maybe make a poll to what changes the players of the server wants, a great server is built mainly on player's satisfaction and not balance.

Quote from: BRANDEN on February 27, 2014, 12:49:21 PM
drake plz just listen to what players wants, and maybe make a poll to what changes the players of the server wants, a great server is built mainly on player's satisfaction and not balance.

LOL

Quote from: BRANDEN on February 27, 2014, 12:49:21 PM
drake plz just listen to what players wants, and maybe make a poll to what changes the players of the server wants, a great server is built mainly on player's satisfaction and not balance.

Yes drake listen players ... here u listen only cryers...
Dont change nothing... its to erly to jude

Yeah, dont lissen to players. Tank so stronk and OP :'((
Delete Tank plisss.

Quote from: zocha on February 27, 2014, 01:35:20 PM
Yes drake listen players ... here u listen only cryers...
Dont change nothing... its to erly to jude

School, you should not have dropped from it.

And tanks = HVY armor drake? LoL. Shield bring just as much defense as hvy armor, depending on your class. Pure tanks = HP+Shield+HVY armor + hp regen (up to some extend).

first of all, what about putting back banish AS IT SUPPOSED TO BE?

i dunno banish undead seems good as it is now, chance is around 30% or something on white mobs and i think its going up each new lvl so seems good.

Quote from: BRANDEN on February 27, 2014, 11:30:27 PM
i dunno banish undead seems good as it is now, chance is around 30% or something on white mobs and i think its going up each new lvl so seems good.

it's much less than 30%

Quote from: Garn. on February 27, 2014, 11:54:32 PM
it's much less than 30%

this is an issue about some tanks, not all tanks. To me, banish is a secondary issue, as it's not universal.

Quote from: Chicks on February 28, 2014, 05:08:29 PM
this is an issue about some tanks, not all tanks. To me, banish is a secondary issue, as it's not universal.

but still, it was fine before, and drake nerfed even the only pve skill SK has.

Garn stop cry, its same chance like for Palladins and ee bp.

Quote from: Kaafrea on March 01, 2014, 07:31:32 PM
Garn stop cry, its same chance like for Palladins and ee bp.

but since Track himself proves that drake is wrong, should i give up? hell no.

a quote from official forum

I've had it land for quite long periods better than 50% and it practically extinguishes mobs when it does.
Most tanks aren't exactly high-output DPS machines so it can be a great feeling to watch a level 65 mob go to zero hp (which your party's buffer can kill for a laugh)."

http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=194467

Quote from: Garn. on March 02, 2014, 11:40:23 AM
but since Track himself proves that drake is wrong, should i give up? hell no.

a quote from official forum

I've had it land for quite long periods better than 50% and it practically extinguishes mobs when it does.
Most tanks aren't exactly high-output DPS machines so it can be a great feeling to watch a level 65 mob go to zero hp (which your party's buffer can kill for a laugh)."

http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=194467

Level 65...  ::)

And is true... The skill without enchanting goes up to lv74, this means pretty much at lv65 you have the following conditions as TRUE:
a) you are lv65
b) the skill is lv65 (tbh i think is magic level 64 or 67, cant check now)
c) the monster is lv65

This means you really get your lethals (as everyone stated too against white mobs).
This changes once you pass lv74 as white color of mobs is related to your level but the skill remains stucked at magic level 74 if not enchanted.

Quote from: =drake= on March 02, 2014, 06:23:57 PM
Level 65...  ::)

And is true... The skill without enchanting goes up to lv74, this means pretty much at lv65 you have the following conditions as TRUE:
a) you are lv65
b) the skill is lv65 (tbh i think is magic level 64 or 67, cant check now)
c) the monster is lv65

This means you really get your lethals (as everyone stated too against white mobs).
This changes once you pass lv74 as white color of mobs is related to your level but the skill remains stucked at magic level 74 if not enchanted.

drake, ma mi prendi per il culo?
lvl 65, mob lvl 65, skill lvl 64 o 66, E su sto server non e' 50%.
sk lvl 77, mob 74, skill 74. prima della tua grande idea di "fixare" banish solo perchè non era "fair" per gli healer, funzionava perfettamente (intorno al 50% chance)
ora NEMMENO 30%. e tu dici che funziona così sull'official IL. cazzate. pure il tuo gm ti posta dei link dal forum official dove la gente conferma quello che dico io, e ti OSTINI a voler aver ragione........
e questa è solo una delle tue grandi idee (sbagliate e confermate pure da Track.) di ritoccare i tank in modo da renderli ancora più inutili.

è ovvio che sui mob 75+ le chance sono meno di 50% se non enchanti la skill, ma se faccio un lethal ogni 10 skill sui mob 74 o meno vuol dire che la skill non funziona COME SULL'OFFICIAL

Quote from: Garn. on March 02, 2014, 06:39:10 PM
drake, ma mi prendi per il culo?
lvl 65, mob lvl 65, skill lvl 64 o 66, E su sto server non e' 50%.
sk lvl 77, mob 74, skill 74. prima della tua grande idea di "fixare" banish solo perchè non era "fair" per gli healer, funzionava perfettamente (intorno al 50% chance)
ora NEMMENO 30%. e tu dici che funziona così sull'official IL. cazzate. pure il tuo gm ti posta dei link dal forum official dove la gente conferma quello che dico io, e ti OSTINI a voler aver ragione........
e questa è solo una delle tue grandi idee (sbagliate e confermate pure da Track.) di ritoccare i tank in modo da renderli ancora più inutili.

è ovvio che sui mob 75+ le chance sono meno di 50% se non enchanti la skill, ma se faccio un lethal ogni 10 skill sui mob 74 o meno vuol dire che la skill non funziona COME SULL'OFFICIAL

Mah, la riguardo per l'ennesima volta ma dubito.
Ma un +1 hai provato a metterglielo?

Quote from: =drake= on March 02, 2014, 06:55:31 PM
Mah, la riguardo per l'ennesima volta ma dubito.
Ma un +1 hai provato a metterglielo?

a parte che ho fallito da +0 a +1, ma l'enchant della skill serve solo se vuoi fare banish ai mob dal 75 in poi.
ti riporto qui le volte che ho usato la skill lvl 10(74) su mobs 74:

1/4, 1/1, 1/6, 1/4, 1/2, 1/5, 1/5, 1/3, 1/11, 1/17, 1/6, 1/12 (media 1/6,333)
siamo ben lontani dal 50% che dovrebbe essere...

Quote from: TheBlackPhoenix on March 02, 2014, 07:05:56 PM
Che pianto..

vorrei vedere te se l'unica skill che hai per fare un po' d'exp (visto che i tank in party non li prende NESSUNO, dati i vari nerf) ti viene praticamente dimezzata d'efficacia....
ah già ma a te non cambierebbe nulla, preferisci passare il tuo tempo a cristallizzare armi  ::)

Quote from: TheBlackPhoenix on March 02, 2014, 07:12:38 PM
Ma dopo 13 pagine che senso ha insistere? Fai prima a farti un mago 60+ ed expare con quello. Fottesega dei tank

insisto perchè è così che dovrebbero funzionare i tank, e non ho intenzione di rifarmi un pg da 0 per dei nerf assurdi. (soprattutto dopo aver fatto retail quest e via discorrendo).

Quote from: TheBlackPhoenix on March 02, 2014, 07:26:18 PM
"Non essere troppo attaccato alle cose materiali"  Cit.

it's about time. non ho tempo da buttare per rifarmi un pg da 0.

Pasta? Siesta!

Quote from: 2sixy on March 02, 2014, 07:36:01 PM
Pasta? Siesta!

yeah sorry about that, it was easier to let drake understand what's the problem

Rework Deflect Arrow. Dont debuff other stats. Just make it weaker on other types of armors/weapons.

Quote from: Garn. on March 02, 2014, 07:24:06 PM
insisto perchè è così che dovrebbero funzionare i tank, e non ho intenzione di rifarmi un pg da 0 per dei nerf assurdi. (soprattutto dopo aver fatto retail quest e via discorrendo).

Quote from: TheBlackPhoenix on March 02, 2014, 07:26:18 PM
"Non essere troppo attaccato alle cose materiali"  Cit.

Quote from: Garn. on March 02, 2014, 07:33:29 PM
it's about time. non ho tempo da buttare per rifarmi un pg da 0.

Quote from: TheBlackPhoenix on March 02, 2014, 07:39:25 PM
fattene spawnare uno da drake :F


p.s. non capisco come mai non mi han ancora permabannato, eppure ho dato loro un milione di motivi.. mah

Quote from: =drake= on March 02, 2014, 06:55:31 PM
Mah, la riguardo per l'ennesima volta ma dubito.
Ma un +1 hai provato a metterglielo?

Dale a tu cuerpo alegria a Macarena
Que tu cuerpo es pa' dale alegria y cosa buena
Dale a tu cuerpo alegria a Macarena
Eh Macarena!
Dale a tu cuerpo alegria a Macarena
Que tu cuerpo es pa' dale alegria y cosa buena
Dale a tu cuerpo alegria a Macarena
Eeeeeeee MACARENA!!!

Quote from: Rufus on March 03, 2014, 11:03:12 AM

Dale a tu cuerpo alegria a Macarena
Que tu cuerpo es pa' dale alegria y cosa buena
Dale a tu cuerpo alegria a Macarena
Eh Macarena!
Dale a tu cuerpo alegria a Macarena
Que tu cuerpo es pa' dale alegria y cosa buena
Dale a tu cuerpo alegria a Macarena
Eeeeeeee MACARENA!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anzzNp8HlVQ

Deflect Arrow is now a toggle

Quote from: =drake= on March 03, 2014, 11:17:56 AM
Deflect Arrow is now a toggle

will it stay like this forever or when ppl will sub mages to tanks it will be changed again?

450 range on bow vs archers.. When tanks are suposed to be counter to them.
Toggle is better then it was, but still not the best option.

Quote from: somasz on March 03, 2014, 11:41:45 AM
will it stay like this forever or when ppl will sub mages to tanks it will be changed again?

Of course it stay like this even when you switch.

About remaining a Toggle, we will see how it goes, internal tests was positive.

Quote from: Clonage on March 03, 2014, 11:48:53 AM
450 range on bow vs archers.. When tanks are suposed to be counter to them.
Toggle is better then it was, but still not the best option.

Is a toggle so... toggle it.

It still sucks. It makes deflect arrow unusable either if u use a weapon that's not FB+shield or tank/DDer combo.

Quote from: Clonage on March 03, 2014, 12:03:27 PM
It still sucks. It makes deflect arrow unusable either if u use a weapon that's not FB+shield or tank/DDer combo.

I know you want it Passive 101% immunity toward arrows even in robe  ::)

Lol i think you didnt read my suggestion some posts ago. Im playing full tank. I want it to be balance for every char. Nerfing a skill is the best way to balance it. But u are nerding stats and not bow dmg reduction.

Quote from: Garn. on February 24, 2014, 11:14:32 PM
for example reduce the % of nerfs (like, dont know, bow range with deflect 750 range, guard stance -instead of no pdef for robe and light - just lower pdef bonus, UD in robe/light - raise a bit AT LEAST mdef, it's very low bonus right now) this is an example.

Quote from: Clonage on March 03, 2014, 12:48:36 PM
Lol i think you didnt read my suggestion some posts ago. Im playing full tank. I want it to be balance for every char. Nerfing a skill is the best way to balance it. But u are nerding stats and not bow dmg reduction.

Right now there is a bug on the cooldown in case you wanna disable it immediatly (you cant for 10 seconds).
Fully fixed on next reboot.

Quote
for example reduce the % of nerfs (like, dont know, bow range with deflect 750 range, guard stance -instead of no pdef for robe and light - just lower pdef bonus, UD in robe/light - raise a bit AT LEAST mdef, it's very low bonus right now) this is an example.

Guard Stance gives still full bonus of shield protection
UD robe/light pdef/mdef are the same since 2007. Same on Dragon too. (Why no one asks for Magnus Chant to give 300% mp regen also to Heavy/Light instead of only to Robe?  ::) )

Just wanted to ask about cooldown  ::) For sure as toogle is much more usable than it was before.

Quote from: =drake= on March 03, 2014, 01:04:12 PM
(Why no one asks for Magnus Chant to give 300% mp regen also to Heavy/Light instead of only to Robe?  ::) )

maybe cause it's not written anywhere in your changelog and ppl doesnt even know about it?  ::)

Quote from: Clonage on February 27, 2014, 12:10:48 PM
How about a nerf onthe bow dmg reduction to the deflect arrow effect.
For example: mage weapons 10% nerf on effect, bows -15%, daggers -5% light -10% and robe -10% (as they have less p def and mostly have mage weapon)
It's just an idea/suggestion, i didnt think that much on numbers.
Just theory crafting.

Quote from: Garn. on March 03, 2014, 01:08:11 PM
maybe cause it's not written anywhere in your changelog and ppl doesnt even know about it?  ::)

You know IS retail like that?  ::)

Quote from: =drake= on March 03, 2014, 01:14:35 PM
You know IS retail like that?  ::)

to be honest no i dont know that, since i never used magnus on heavy or light ;o

Quote from: Garn. on March 03, 2014, 01:21:29 PM
to be honest no i dont know that, since i never used magnus on heavy or light ;o

cose a caso

Quote from: Garn. on March 03, 2014, 01:21:29 PM
to be honest no i dont know that, since i never used magnus on heavy or light ;o

Sto +1 a Banish hai provato a metterglielo o ancora +nada?

oooh macarena, te lo ripeto, l'enchant delle skill serve solo se vuoi usarle sui mob di 75+, proprio per aumentarne il livello. non serve per i mob di livello 74 o meno.
il problema e' che manco riesci a fare lethal ai mob blu (68)...fai te.

edit: anche se enchanto le skill, il problema si ripresenta quando vai dai mob di 76+, e cioè base landing rate errata. puoi enchantare quanto ti pare, ma se parti dal 30% (pare più un 20% btw) non cambierà nulla

Quote from: Garn. on March 03, 2014, 01:30:39 PM
oooh macarena, te lo ripeto, l'enchant delle skill serve solo se vuoi usarle sui mob di 75+, proprio per aumentarne il livello. non serve per i mob di livello 74 o meno.
il problema e' che manco riesci a fare lethal ai mob blu (68)...fai te.

Ho appena riprovato... su 10 tentativi ne ho avuti 4 con successo... (skill liscia lv10 +0, mob lv73)

Quote from: =drake= on March 03, 2014, 01:32:36 PM
Ho appena riprovato... su 10 tentativi ne ho avuti 4 con successo... (skill liscia lv10 +0)

prova a passarci una giornata come ho fatto io e poi mi fai sapere la media.......

ora sto lavorando, più tardi loggo e ti faccio vedere (pm Garnett)

parla inglese finocchio

testa di cazzo testosterone mili grazie ministrone pasta della casa figlio

:/ ...

de fuq happened here? english please?

Quote from: Benoth on March 03, 2014, 01:45:35 PM
de fuq happened here? english please?

Italians and english, goodluck.

Quote from: VOoDOoT on March 03, 2014, 01:43:17 PM
testa di cazzo testosterone mili grazie ministrone pasta della casa figlio

wut???? i guess drahamy didnt teach you enough  8)

to claim that Argo works good now is total nonsence
im 69 DA with 68 lvl argo
i went to exp in Marty necropolis... mobs 65-67 1st rooms
by Drake my argo should work np on mobs but guess what....
after 2-3 hits of panther BB argo...
press argo again... 2 hits and mob argo panther again....
and no this is not DPS of destro on skills ... only pet....
i played alot of different servers.... never saw argo working (actually not working) like that...
im not using tattoo of wall (well... its custom item that suppose to compensate the nerf done)

and banish=ffs... waste of mana even on -3/-4 lvl mobs

tank have 0 skill to kill...
only /attack

P.S. i use DC heavy set+shield and DLE

Agro*

I'd like to be able to read this thread, if it could be kept in english?

Quote from: Chicks on March 03, 2014, 06:49:15 PM
I'd like to be able to read this thread, if it could be kept in english?

yeah sorry, it was only some "explanations" on how banish seraph works

Quote from: =drake= on March 03, 2014, 11:17:56 AM
Deflect Arrow is now a toggle

I can't move or use any skill for 5 sec when I activate it, is that normal? (bp/pal)

Quote from: Voodoo on March 03, 2014, 09:44:24 PM
I can't move or use any skill for 5 sec when I activate it, is that normal? (bp/pal)

Definitely not...
I will check it out. (you did fullcheck?)

Quote from: =drake= on March 03, 2014, 10:02:54 PM
Definitely not...
I will check it out. (you did fullcheck?)

Yes, I did.

So.. if I get this right, we still have a nerf, but we can toggle it now... right?

Quote from: Chicks on March 04, 2014, 06:20:28 PM
So.. if I get this right, we still have a nerf, but we can toggle it now... right?

Yes, exactly, so you can now choose:
- turn it on, full protection but usual -castspeed in robe, -atkspeed on dagger and -range on bow
- turn it off, no penalities on robe or those specific weapons

the turn on/off issue of few seconds block people are having ingame should be solved from next update/reboot/crash.

Quote from: =drake= on March 04, 2014, 11:49:47 PM
Yes, exactly, so you can now choose:
- turn it on, full protection but usual -castspeed in robe, -atkspeed on dagger and -range on bow
- turn it off, no penalities on robe or those specific weapons

the turn on/off issue of few seconds block people are having ingame should be solved from next update/reboot/crash.

It was rhetorical, but ty.

So full tanks now have to decide either to have Deflect Arrow on or off vs archers... When it's supposed to be always up. The match up is tottaly fvcked up, if i want to mitigate archer dmg when i have a bow equiped(Deflect Arrow On) it will be 900 range vs 450. Either that or go full retard mode with 1h fighter weapon+shield equiped all the time vs archers.
Seems legit.

PS.: I've gave my suggestion on the matter, still no feed back. Balancing is necessary(tweaks on numbers), not nerfing stuff to the ground.

Quote from: Clonage on March 05, 2014, 05:38:36 PM
So full tanks now have to decide either to have Deflect Arrow on or off vs archers... When it's supposed to be always up. The match up is tottaly fvcked up, if i want to mitigate archer dmg when i have a bow equiped(Deflect Arrow On) it will be 900 range vs 450. Either that or go full retard mode with 1h fighter weapon+shield equiped all the time vs archers.
Seems legit.

PS.: I've gave my suggestion on the matter, still no feed back. Balancing is necessary(tweaks on numbers), not nerfing stuff to the ground.

+1

Quote from: Clonage on March 05, 2014, 05:38:36 PM
So full tanks now have to decide either to have Deflect Arrow on or off vs archers... When it's supposed to be always up. The match up is tottaly fvcked up, if i want to mitigate archer dmg when i have a bow equiped(Deflect Arrow On) it will be 900 range vs 450. Either that or go full retard mode with 1h fighter weapon+shield equiped all the time vs archers.
Seems legit.

PS.: I've gave my suggestion on the matter, still no feed back. Balancing is necessary(tweaks on numbers), not nerfing stuff to the ground.

Yup.

But yeah, let me run around trying to land 5 hits while i'm kited alllll day... Might as well run the other way, at least I might live in the end...
I doubt Drake actually care about the situation, tbh.
It's better, yeah, but it's still utterly retarded...

Quote from: Chicks on March 05, 2014, 07:13:08 PM
Yup.

But yeah, let me run around trying to land 5 hits while i'm kited alllll day... Might as well run the other way, at least I might live in the end...
I doubt Drake actually care about the situation, tbh.
It's better, yeah, but it's still utterly retarded...

since when tanks supposed to counter archers? Ur resisting most of the dmg, u should tank them, but u will die from them since u have no chance getting close in any way. Tank =/= dd anyway w/o nerf 500 range vs 900, excluding oly, how u think having 500 or 300 range change anything? U will not get close anyway

Quote from: Peorexo on March 05, 2014, 07:18:01 PM
since when tanks supposed to counter archers? Ur resisting most of the dmg, u should tank them, but u will die from them since u have no chance getting close in any way. Tank =/= dd anyway w/o nerf 500 range vs 900, excluding oly, how u think having 500 or 300 range change anything? U will not get close anyway

You have been playing substack for to long my friend, but yes, substack tanks have a harder time defeating archers. And with agro the way it is it doesnt help at all in mass pvp.
Still tanks get nerfed for no reason.

tank nerf because this is a substack server

without nerf and against char without tank sub:
tank/archer defeat all mage fighter and archer
tank/mage defeat all mage fighter and archer
tank/healer unkillable
tank/summoner unkillable
the only one with trouble is tank/fighter because of lack in range

best counter skill:
for robe user is deflect arrow, shield defense and UD
for light user is deflect arrow, shield defense and UD
for heavy user is deflect arrow and shield defense

thats why they need to be nerfed

Quote from: Peorexo on March 05, 2014, 07:18:01 PM
since when tanks supposed to counter archers? Ur resisting most of the dmg, u should tank them, but u will die from them since u have no chance getting close in any way. Tank =/= dd anyway w/o nerf 500 range vs 900, excluding oly, how u think having 500 or 300 range change anything? U will not get close anyway

there's a "slight" difference between 600 (not 500) and 450......

Quote from: Garn. on March 05, 2014, 08:16:06 PM
there's a "slight" difference between 600 (not 500) and 450......

still rogue type with light armor high evasion and high range will kill tank anyway. On all servers i played i never saw archers having big problems killing tanks in oly for example (if same skill level)

Quote from: loXol on March 05, 2014, 08:15:22 PM
tank nerf because this is a substack server

without nerf and against char without tank sub:
tank/archer defeat all mage fighter and archer
tank/mage defeat all mage fighter and archer
tank/healer unkillable
tank/summoner unkillable
the only one with trouble is tank/fighter because of lack in range

best counter skill:
for robe user is deflect arrow, shield defense and UD
for light user is deflect arrow, shield defense and UD
for heavy user is deflect arrow and shield defense

thats why they need to be nerfed

nerfed ok, not made totally useless....

Quote from: Abaddon on March 05, 2014, 08:47:46 PM
Deflect Arrow/UD/VG : effect on Heavy 100%/Light 75%/Robe 50% and thats all.
It was working perfectly on other serves, dont see a reason why it shouldnt be like that here, 80% of mages are mages/summoners, other 20% are supports (pp,ee,sws,bd)

that sum pretty much all. same for other skills (stances)

Quote from: loXol on March 05, 2014, 08:15:22 PM
tank nerf because this is a substack server

without nerf and against char without tank sub:
tank/archer defeat all mage fighter and archer
tank/mage defeat all mage fighter and archer
tank/healer unkillable
tank/summoner unkillable
the only one with trouble is tank/fighter because of lack in range

best counter skill:
for robe user is deflect arrow, shield defense and UD
for light user is deflect arrow, shield defense and UD
for heavy user is deflect arrow and shield defense

thats why they need to be nerfed

That's why UD, Majestic and other stuff are nerfed with Robe and Light. It should be the same with Level 4 Deflect arrow(40% Bow Dmg Reduction), -20% on robe, - 10% on light(which makes only 30% bow damage reduction, same for forward examples), - 20% on equiped Bow, - 15% on equiped Dagger, etc etc. These values are just examples...

so archer/tank or glad/tank or dagger/tank have full effects?
so mage/tank with shield defense, deflect arrow will block 50% arrows and the one which land are 50%? or light user 75% + evasion?

for me
a tank is a RB char, a train char, or a clan leader to engrave
the only one real tank usefull in pvp is pal/wl or at least sk/ps

i never liked to see panzer char unkillable dealing tons of damage.... as mage archer or dagger.....

Quote from: Peorexo on March 05, 2014, 07:18:01 PM
since when tanks supposed to counter archers? Ur resisting most of the dmg, u should tank them, but u will die from them since u have no chance getting close in any way. Tank =/= dd anyway w/o nerf 500 range vs 900, excluding oly, how u think having 500 or 300 range change anything? U will not get close anyway

I never said it was a counter and that we're sure to win, but the current nerfs makes it obvious that even if we tried hard, we won't kill them. We had a chance before. Archers are not that hard, when you can use a bow of your own while closing the gap. Maybe thats because I play TK (fastest tank, with entangle and root cubic), but frankly archers where hard, but not that hard. TKs where always ok vs archers, depending on both players skills/item setup. Hard to win, but not impossible with some luck/trick. Now it's a no brainer. if I see an archer, no point in trying to fight. Actually,

If I see pvp, no point in fighting.

If I see rb? No point in joining.

So yeah... fun class to play.

loxol, if you can't kill a /tank, don't blame the tanks. UD effect with light armor/robe is all ok imo, as a tank should not use that anyway. But deflect arrow is a joke, especially with the current state of aggression.

Anyway frankly, if you can't kill any /tank, well you're the problem.

Tank/summoner? Kill the summon/move away from UD. GG.
Tank/healer? well it's long, but they don't hit that hard.
Others? Well they are focused class, so it enter into the rock/paper/scissor logic.

What exactly should tank sub to right now? Tank/archers? Nerfed. Tank/mage? Nerfed. Tank/dagger? (dunno if it's nerfed, I guess yes or it will be?).

Soon tank/summoners will be nerfed? HVY + tp nerfed maybe?

So what's left to that "pure tank" bullshit? We'll all sub sws and glad (or WL, lol)? And freak SK right (or sk bd? lol...)? All for the sake of balance, lets ruin a class...

Give us a working aggression at least, so our super cool pal/glad can do something...

A working aggression is mandatory at this point, in order the wreck that is the tank class online. Make an aggression debuff that force the target that only work for a time and while the user has a shield + sword/blunt? That will encourage pure tank setup way more then nerfing one of his most useful skill in pvp...

EDIT : After reading your reply loxol, please check what most of us tanks players stated multiple time in this thread before saying what you said. Also fix your math/logic/wtvr skill, cuz what you said was plain wrong.
But it's true, most who go fighter/tank don't use light. They use hvy. Mages are something else.

Quote from: loXol on March 05, 2014, 09:05:06 PM
so archer/tank or glad/tank or dagger/tank have full effects?
so mage/tank with shield defense, deflect arrow will block 50% arrows and the one which land are 50%? or light user 75% + evasion?

for me
a tank is a RB char, a train char, or a clan leader to engrave
the only one real tank usefull in pvp is pal/wl or at least sk/ps

i never liked to see panzer char unkillable dealing tons of damage.... as mage archer or dagger.....

.... all the "nerfs" right now are directed to Robe/light users, BESIDES Deflect Arrow... Which nerfs Character stats and not the skill it self.

Quote from: Clonage on March 05, 2014, 09:15:13 PM
.... all the "nerfs" right now are directed to Robe/light users, BESIDES Deflect Arrow... Which nerfs Character stats and not the skill it self.

actually it's pretty much the same thing as the other nerfs, but the difference is that the others don't effect pure tank status. Deflect arrow does.

@chicks

all u say is 1vs1 directed, but whe all know those nerfs are all for mass pvp.

and btw where did u see pure tank in stack server?
tank here are most archer, mage, bishop or some dagger: so i dont get the point to make something to pure tank where its 0.01% of char ingame...

PS: avant que tu leave tu pleurais deja avec les meme arguments, change de char ca ira mieu....

Quote from: loXol on March 05, 2014, 10:51:13 PM
@chicks

all u say is 1vs1 directed, but whe all know those nerfs are all for mass pvp.

and btw where did u see pure tank in stack server?
tank here are most archer, mage, bishop or some dagger: so i dont get the point to make something to pure tank where its 0.01% of char ingame...

PS: avant que tu leave tu pleurais deja avec les meme arguments, change de char ca ira mieu....

Drake said himself he wanted to encourage pure tank setup, thus why I argument that way. If you'd actually read the thread you critic, you'd know it.

And all I say is not 1v1 oriented... Mass agro, vengeance, deflect arrow, all those spells will have a strong (or not, currently) impact in both mass pvp and 1v1. It's just easier to grasp the issue in a 1v1 then in a mass pvp where multiple parameters come into play...

Let me just traduce for the others who don't understand french : "Before you left, you where already crying with the same argument. Change char, it's gonna be better".

It's not really an argument, but Okay. "stop trying to fix things that are broken" would be a good way to sum it up. Why do you think no one go pure tank? It's maybe the reason why drake want to push the pure tank setup more? For my part, I play tank because I like it's meta. The nerf kinda freaks it up, which is not nice for any tank players. It just affect archer/tanks more. All other nerfs to tanks are there for a reason and are not affecting tanks at all/much. Deflect arrow, however, have a strong effect. If you think I "cry" for myself, your dumber then you look and so far you don't come out as being super smart. Anyway, I'll make my TK/ES anyway, thanks for your concern on my welfare.

Quote from: Chicks on March 05, 2014, 09:13:24 PM
Tank/summoner? Kill the summon/move away from UD. GG.
Tank/healer? well it's long, but they don't hit that hard.
Others? Well they are focused class, so it enter into the rock/paper/scissor logic.

What exactly should tank sub to right now? Tank/archers? Nerfed. Tank/mage? Nerfed. Tank/dagger? (dunno if it's nerfed, I guess yes or it will be?).

You are talking about a skill, Deflect Arrow, that is used against 1 single specific target: archer.
Tank/Archer, without deflect arrow, what nerfs have against... a mage? zero. a healer? zero. a dagger? zero. and so on...
Tank/Mage what amazing nerfs gets against anything that is not archer? Zero.
Tank/Dagger? same as the first two.

So, the Deflect Arrow nerf is simply required to make your same statement work: rock/paper/scissor logic

without this deflect arrow thing the rock-paper-scissor would not work at all for tank/archer, tank/mage, tank/dagger and basically the main counter for them would be only themselves (tank/archer vs tank/archer). That's not really rockpaperscissor at all...

Im not going to care more cuz it's pointless. Like it's fycking uber OP to let full tank have 600 range on bow. Keep it as you want, im sick and tired of this bullshit.
Cya somewhere else.

Quote from: Clonage on March 06, 2014, 01:47:45 AM
Im not going to care more cuz it's pointless. Like it's fycking uber OP to let full tank have 600 range on bow. Keep it as you want, im sick and tired of this bullshit.
Cya somewhere else.

seems someone need to pown with bow in pal/pp...

Quote from: =drake= on March 06, 2014, 01:19:24 AM
You are talking about a skill, Deflect Arrow, that is used against 1 single specific target: archer.
Tank/Archer, without deflect arrow, what nerfs have against... a mage? zero. a healer? zero. a dagger? zero. and so on...
Tank/Mage what amazing nerfs gets against anything that is not archer? Zero.
Tank/Dagger? same as the first two.

So, the Deflect Arrow nerf is simply required to make your same statement work: rock/paper/scissor logic

without this deflect arrow thing the rock-paper-scissor would not work at all for tank/archer, tank/mage, tank/dagger and basically the main counter for them would be only themselves (tank/archer vs tank/archer). That's not really rockpaperscissor at all...

Not that simple. Tank/mage?  Zero? How about both mdef masteries which are no more? Or if it is thank/propher how about dual-heavy masteries?

I for example play sps/sws like I did bac in C4 on infi and now my char got nerfed in 3 major points.

- Deflect arrow is useless cause you cast slower in it. Enough to never make it viable option, archer or not.
- Mdef masteries no longer stack, superior mdef gone.
- sleep got nerfed.

Now, this char was never OP. It was good, most of the people still preferes sps/ee or sps/es. Now... what those chars have nerfed now. Nothing really. They are still the same strong, and sps/ee even has the trance which gives it the ancient sleep advantage over other classes. This is not a QQ message, but just a statement how I see things. That your nerfs did adress some OP combos, but also nerfed chars that were not OP and that I'm not a tank. subbing anything with tank now is a daring choice when you can sub it with summoner which will give you simply more power and double HP and no drawbacks at all. That applies for both mages and dighters of all classes. None will make tanks, I know no tanks in the game and that is between... +- 50 players. Deflect arrow is not gamebreaker even unnerfed. Robed without TP still die on 2 crits from archers, and heavy-equipped tanks are there to be resilient dammit, that is their purpose. Now they are kinda not so none plays them.

Quote from: =drake= on March 06, 2014, 01:19:24 AM
You are talking about a skill, Deflect Arrow, that is used against 1 single specific target: archer.
Tank/Archer, without deflect arrow, what nerfs have against... a mage? zero. a healer? zero. a dagger? zero. and so on...
Tank/Mage what amazing nerfs gets against anything that is not archer? Zero.
Tank/Dagger? same as the first two.

So, the Deflect Arrow nerf is simply required to make your same statement work: rock/paper/scissor logic

without this deflect arrow thing the rock-paper-scissor would not work at all for tank/archer, tank/mage, tank/dagger and basically the main counter for them would be only themselves (tank/archer vs tank/archer). That's not really rockpaperscissor at all...

Wall of text, but please read it drake. I think it explains most of our concern relatively clearly.

Deflect arrow is the rock-paper-scissor core element of all tank subs? Remove it and everything fail... Interesting...

Mages can kill tanks pretty fast too... Daggers too... Basically deflect arrow is only good vs ... archers... as you stated yourself... So... I don't see why deflect arrow is supposed to be the angular rock of the tank class...

Sincerely, I see no point in a nerf up to that extend. Nerfing mage subs + pure tank just because what... archer/tank is too op? I said it and I'll hammer it some more, because I don't think it quite sink in... Because that's the issue you told us about here right? Or did I understood it wrong? You want to nerf archer/tank right?

Because from what I recall, archer/tank owned most mage/tank, even before the nerf... So I don't get why we have to nerf every tank sub AND the base class, just to "balance" 1 op class.

Let me just get this right one more time. If you're a mage tank vs an archer tank... the archer tank actually has even more advantage than before, as the mage/tank cannot use his deflect arrow without a major disadvantage.... But you told us that archer/tank is the problem... So you're nerfing every class/tank who fight vs archers, because archer/tanks owned all other archers sub? INTERESTING! Exception : Archer/tank(bd and sws included) vs Archer/something, mostly summoners.

Sooo because 1 major part of the population couldn't play against 1 other important and specific class type, we nerf... every other possible tank sub...

Dagger/tank vs archers/wtvr = nerfed.
Mage/tank vs archer/wtvr = nerfed.
tank/tank (pure tank, what ever the sub that doesn't alter the play style) vs archer/wtvr = nerfed.

Any. Single. Tank, subbed or not, is nerfed against archers now, what ever the sub. So how is this is supposed to be a fix to the OP tank/archer problem? Please drake, understand I don't mean to be insulting or wtvr, but for the love of god this idea is beyond retarded. It only drag the tank class even lower. It encourage nothing, achieve nothing and fail to fix the issue you wanted to fix. This "fix", actually, is more breaking to the rock/paper/scissor logic than simply removing it, as tank/archers is the only tank sub that can compete with an archer/wtvr now and since no archer/tank will activate deflect arrow vs someone without a bow (aka an archer), it doesn't nerfs the OP class against anything but archer/summoner. (or archer/dagger, or archer healer, or archer nuker. I won't develop more on why I didn't include those classes to the discussion, I think it's fairly self explanatory)

So to summarize, I get that you want to nerf a class that is OP. If pure tank classes need to be nerfed for that? Well I guess so be it. It is unfair and you won't see pure tank sub as you claimed you wanted, but it's the price to pay right? But don't nerf every classes that sub to a tank just because 1 combo is op... As someone said : change bow range to almost nothing. It fixes everything for pure tank, mage/tank, dagger/tank and your dreaded archer/tank. At least try it.

Quote from: LadyZENITH on March 06, 2014, 02:42:04 AM

- Deflect arrow is useless cause you cast slower in it. Enough to never make it viable option, archer or not.
- Mdef masteries no longer stack, superior mdef gone.
- sleep got nerfed.

- Deflect Arrow is a toggle and you use it against archers only. Against everyone else? nonsense.
- Mdef masteries (like Pdef masteries and Patk masteries) dont stack since 2005 in DNET... 9 years is plenty to get used to it.
- Sleep untouched, see changelog.

Quote from: Chicks on March 06, 2014, 05:00:56 AM
Dagger/tank vs archers/wtvr = nerfed.
Mage/tank vs archer/wtvr = nerfed.
tank/tank (pure tank, what ever the sub that doesn't alter the play style) vs archer/wtvr = nerfed.

Dagger/Tank are the strongest and hardest dagger to kill in the game. This is well known.
Once a Dagger equips correctly he becomes extremely deadly so you get the most dangerous DPS class combined with the most tanky class (THE tank).
With the Deflect Arrow nerf they have two choices: a go tank mode and lose dps or dont activate it and get full damage from archers but keep full dps. This simply allows the rock-paper-scissor to work so Archers/whatever, in the fighters, is the straight enemy of Dagger/Tank. VS other classes instead the Dagger/Tank have the upper hand many times.

Mage/Tank is the most unkillable mage of the game. Again same concept DPS+Tank. This way they COULD be killed by Archer/Whatever. As archer was ALWAYS the nemesis of every mage and this way, to some extent, it remains. (even if the damage mitigated by a mage/tank is way much more than a normal mage. You cant argue on that!). VS all other classes Mage/Tank have many times the upper hand.

Archer/Tank. Same concept of previous two. This way makes sense to have a Archer/somethingelse. In the past everyone was doing purely Archer/Tank (if they knew the old mechanics, of course) because it was simply THE best for both defence and dps. Now is not and when you are Archer you have many options and none is "the best".
examples:
Archer/Tank: higher tankiness than any other archer. Good DPS (as archer) against any other class. When fighting against other archers can trade dps range for extra defence.
Archer/whateverelse: probably much less tankiness than archer/tank. Good DPS but probably higher if well combined with passive or buffs (Archer/Dagger, Archer/WL, Archer/Buffer).
You see? By default the Archer/Tank is more tanky than other archers. Without this single nerf Archer/Tank would top out any damage output from other Archer/whatever thanks to deflect arrow without any penality and the mitigation is of 40% (stacked over other mitigations thanks to tank already). Hardly another Archer/Whatever can deal so easily (1 button press) 40% more damage to balance out the two classes! It would have been a no brainer to make always Archer/Tank when you do archer.

Tank/Tank vs Archer... is nerfed when the tank have a bow in hand or a dagger in hand. True. I dont love it that much either and thats why the effect became first a 2min buff (instead of 20min, that would have been impossible to manage) and now is even easier to manage: a toggle.
You wanna blow away an archer with HIS favorite weapon while your char have zero knowledge in it? You are welcome do to it but disable Deflect Arrow if you want your full range else stick to a melee weapon.

Others/Tank vs Whatever? Zero issues. They have no drawbacks at all if played in Heavy Armor. Warlord/Tank for example, that in past was totally underrated class, now is absolutely viable (but still underrated because of players' lack of knowledge) as there are no "OMFG" best whatever/tank combos.

The choices of the nerfs was based over 2008-2013 experience. I dont think i have to even post graphs about demography of -active- players at that time. Who played should remember that there was two ways only to top everyone: something/Tank (pvp) or Orc (oly and pve bosses). Anything else? walking meat.


[/quote]
So to summarize, I get that you want to nerf a class that is OP. If pure tank classes need to be nerfed for that? Well I guess so be it. It is unfair and you won't see pure tank sub as you claimed you wanted, but it's the price to pay right? But don't nerf every classes that sub to a tank just because 1 combo is op... As someone said : change bow range to almost nothing. It fixes everything for pure tank, mage/tank, dagger/tank and your dreaded archer/tank. At least try it.
[/quote]

Is already big the change from 2min to toggle for the skill. I really wanna avoid make server become TarantulaBetatestServer with skills changing every week. It makes instability for the players and is extremely dangerous for a low rate server so thats why i'm overly cautious about such changes as i had plently of experience about this in the past.
The changelog was well exposed at beginning, there was no "secret nerfs" or whatever.

When you talk about Archer/Tank and "lets remove the nerf", you should first of all think:
WHAT other Archer/whatever is viable right now? right now many choices from Archer/PP to Archer/Summoner or even Archer/WL or Archer/Dagger (best unbuffed critical rate/damage archer of the game)
Archer/Tank have still some good points over other Archer/whatever? Yes they do. Various defensive boons that Archer/Tank still fully have like UD/Majesty/Heavy Armor/maybeheals/etc...
DO right now Archer/Whatever win against Archer/tank and do the inverse can happen too? Yes. They null out more or less on defence vs dps.
WHAT would change for Archer/whatever by in fact boosting Archer/tank against all those combos? Sum of damage mitigated + damage dealt by the Archer/Tank would be by far superior than the sum of the damage dealt + damage mitigated by the archer/whatever.
Result? Making automatically Archer/Tank the best class of choice between Archer/something. You know the consequences here....

Quote from: Abaddon on March 06, 2014, 10:17:09 AM
Why i have a feeling that GMs didnt play this game for years and their knowledge about pvp on stacksub servers comes only from old DN aka one of most unbalanced servers ever? :D

sarcasm/flame off, do not continue!  8)

why do i have the same feeling?  :(

Quote from: =drake= on March 06, 2014, 06:23:15 AMOnce a Dagger equips correctly he becomes extremely deadly so you get the most dangerous DPS class combined with the most tanky class (THE tank).
With the Deflect Arrow nerf they have two choices: a go tank mode and lose dps or dont activate it and get full damage from archers but keep full dps. This simply allows the rock-paper-scissor to work so Archers/whatever, in the fighters, is the straight enemy of Dagger/Tank. VS other classes instead the Dagger/Tank have the upper hand many times.

fix shots first or ur imaginations of dagger actually killing someone will never happen.
http://boards.lineage2.com/archive/index.php/t-154445.html
here u go 2007y thread with saying "dagger got ONLY *2 shots bonus"
and then tell me about ur official files once again.
Becouse hitting full buffed mage on shock blast (-30% pdef) with focus power + focus attack + vicious stance in back for 1000, isnt rly strong :) (counting on mj robe set+3 mage with proper buff againts fighters)

Back in 2005 ,c4 era i had a SR/TK and PR/PS. Masteries were stacking at first,but then you nerfed them. And guess what: PR/PS was still 111% better than SR/TK in any aspect. DPS(ok,its PR),Survivability(TP> UD, even in heavy with 'normal' deflect arrow TP+light armor still beats the heavy user tank/archer since tank means shield and skills for it, not heavy armor+deflect!)

Quote from: sm0g on March 06, 2014, 01:20:28 PM
Back in 2005 ,c4 era i had a SR/TK and PR/PS. Masteries were stacking at first,but then you nerfed them. And guess what: PR/PS was still 111% better than SR/TK in any aspect. DPS(ok,its PR),Survivability(TP> UD, even in heavy with 'normal' deflect arrow TP still beats the heavy user tank/archer since tank means shield,not heavy armor!)

^this. All of this.

Quote from: =drake= on March 06, 2014, 06:23:15 AM
Dagger/Tank are the strongest and hardest dagger to kill in the game. This is well known.
Once a Dagger equips correctly he becomes extremely deadly so you get the most dangerous DPS class combined with the most tanky class (THE tank).
With the Deflect Arrow nerf they have two choices: a go tank mode and lose dps or dont activate it and get full damage from archers but keep full dps. This simply allows the rock-paper-scissor to work so Archers/whatever, in the fighters, is the straight enemy of Dagger/Tank. VS other classes instead the Dagger/Tank have the upper hand many times.

Mage/Tank is the most unkillable mage of the game. Again same concept DPS+Tank. This way they COULD be killed by Archer/Whatever. As archer was ALWAYS the nemesis of every mage and this way, to some extent, it remains. (even if the damage mitigated by a mage/tank is way much more than a normal mage. You cant argue on that!). VS all other classes Mage/Tank have many times the upper hand.

Archer/Tank. Same concept of previous two. This way makes sense to have a Archer/somethingelse. In the past everyone was doing purely Archer/Tank (if they knew the old mechanics, of course) because it was simply THE best for both defence and dps. Now is not and when you are Archer you have many options and none is "the best".
examples:
Archer/Tank: higher tankiness than any other archer. Good DPS (as archer) against any other class. When fighting against other archers can trade dps range for extra defence.
Archer/whateverelse: probably much less tankiness than archer/tank. Good DPS but probably higher if well combined with passive or buffs (Archer/Dagger, Archer/WL, Archer/Buffer).
You see? By default the Archer/Tank is more tanky than other archers. Without this single nerf Archer/Tank would top out any damage output from other Archer/whatever thanks to deflect arrow without any penality and the mitigation is of 40% (stacked over other mitigations thanks to tank already). Hardly another Archer/Whatever can deal so easily (1 button press) 40% more damage to balance out the two classes! It would have been a no brainer to make always Archer/Tank when you do archer.

Tank/Tank vs Archer... is nerfed when the tank have a bow in hand or a dagger in hand. True. I dont love it that much either and thats why the effect became first a 2min buff (instead of 20min, that would have been impossible to manage) and now is even easier to manage: a toggle.
You wanna blow away an archer with HIS favorite weapon while your char have zero knowledge in it? You are welcome do to it but disable Deflect Arrow if you want your full range else stick to a melee weapon.

Others/Tank vs Whatever? Zero issues. They have no drawbacks at all if played in Heavy Armor. Warlord/Tank for example, that in past was totally underrated class, now is absolutely viable (but still underrated because of players' lack of knowledge) as there are no "OMFG" best whatever/tank combos.

The choices of the nerfs was based over 2008-2013 experience. I dont think i have to even post graphs about demography of -active- players at that time. Who played should remember that there was two ways only to top everyone: something/Tank (pvp) or Orc (oly and pve bosses). Anything else? walking meat.



So to summarize, I get that you want to nerf a class that is OP. If pure tank classes need to be nerfed for that? Well I guess so be it. It is unfair and you won't see pure tank sub as you claimed you wanted, but it's the price to pay right? But don't nerf every classes that sub to a tank just because 1 combo is op... As someone said : change bow range to almost nothing. It fixes everything for pure tank, mage/tank, dagger/tank and your dreaded archer/tank. At least try it.


Is already big the change from 2min to toggle for the skill. I really wanna avoid make server become TarantulaBetatestServer with skills changing every week. It makes instability for the players and is extremely dangerous for a low rate server so thats why i'm overly cautious about such changes as i had plently of experience about this in the past.
The changelog was well exposed at beginning, there was no "secret nerfs" or whatever.

When you talk about Archer/Tank and "lets remove the nerf", you should first of all think:
WHAT other Archer/whatever is viable right now? right now many choices from Archer/PP to Archer/Summoner or even Archer/WL or Archer/Dagger (best unbuffed critical rate/damage archer of the game)
Archer/Tank have still some good points over other Archer/whatever? Yes they do. Various defensive boons that Archer/Tank still fully have like UD/Majesty/Heavy Armor/maybeheals/etc...
DO right now Archer/Whatever win against Archer/tank and do the inverse can happen too? Yes. They null out more or less on defence vs dps.
WHAT would change for Archer/whatever by in fact boosting Archer/tank against all those combos? Sum of damage mitigated + damage dealt by the Archer/Tank would be by far superior than the sum of the damage dealt + damage mitigated by the archer/whatever.
Result? Making automatically Archer/Tank the best class of choice between Archer/something. You know the consequences here....

So, contrarily to what you told us previously, archer/tank is not the only issue. Good to know. You also don't seem to think that it's the best idea/most interesting nerf to have the nerf as it is now, which is nice to hear too.

Now from there, what will happen to tanks? Because no one will sub tank if everything that gives defense (which is the reason why people sub to tanks) is nerfed to the ground. Like you said, Tank/archer are relatively close to Archer/wtvr, so what's the point in going tank sub if the only thing that sub give you is no more? And anyway thats because people can't play vs X/tank, not because it's OP. Remove that from your head, it is not OP in any way shape or form. It's only stronger if you stand there and try to "nuke" it to oblivion, hoping to win the standoff, which is where the tank sub shine.... It's like showing your back to a dagger, or ignoring the summon of your target on TP... It's only harder because people actually have to think and pay attention, instead of pressing F1 all day.

Will there be adjustment to Deflect Arrow? Is it planed to have tests for range reduction or what ever? (like crits removal when on deflect arrow?) Because there are a lot of good ideas laying around, worth testing, that are less penalizing to the "innocent" classes, while still reducing the capabilities of the "OP" class.

And aggression (and vengeance)? Anything about that? Any forced targeting planned, to counter attack spamming, which entirely negate the effect of the spell, even for just a fraction of a second (based on chance/level, for exemple)? Right now, aggression is only OK (and even OK is a stretch) vs retards in pvp, and pretty bad overall vs mobs/RB.

Should we expect changes to tanks in the "near" future? Or is this thread just to vent off and be done with it?

Quote from: Peorexo on March 06, 2014, 01:04:16 PM
fix shots first or ur imaginations of dagger actually killing someone will never happen.
http://boards.lineage2.com/archive/index.php/t-154445.html
here u go 2007y thread with saying "dagger got ONLY *2 shots bonus"
and then tell me about ur official files once again.
Becouse hitting full buffed mage on shock blast (-30% pdef) with focus power + focus attack + vicious stance in back for 1000, isnt rly strong :) (counting on mj robe set+3 mage with proper buff againts fighters)

+1

Quote from: zocha on March 06, 2014, 06:09:18 PM+1

It might be because of the 25% damage reduction in PvP...

Deflect arrow toggle works fine now, but could you disable "buff animation" when you  turn it on/off?

Quote from: =drake= on March 06, 2014, 05:43:52 AM
- Deflect Arrow is a toggle and you use it against archers only. Against everyone else? nonsense.
- Mdef masteries (like Pdef masteries and Patk masteries) dont stack since 2005 in DNET... 9 years is plenty to get used to it.
- Sleep untouched, see changelog.

No, you misunderstood me in one part and remember stuff wrong in the other. Stuff like patack and pdef stacked on DN to extremes back in the yeah, like you mentioned 2005/6 in the days before the C4 server core. Some stuff did multiply itself so there were some insane numbers.

What I talk about is the 2007 era aka the kinda ballanced C4 one. There mdef stacked. And I know it cause i had the same char. Stacked by both masteries counting. not OP not some multiply BS but it could be felt. Now doesn't.

The same your sleep argument. We have IL sleep default, which is nerfed by ncsoft. But comparing to C4 kinda ballanced days, now we have very dominating chars, aka any chars with trance skill (aka the unnerfed sleep) subbed to maged are really strong, as strong as they were before, and others suffer from the NCsoft nerfs. The still strong chars are like SPS/EE SPS/ES EE/ES. You will see in pvp and oly how they do. Same goes for necro/bishop, they have no drawbacks, and maaaaany other chars were nerfed due to no masteries stack or this new useless deflect arrow.

I still call it useless, cause even against pure archers, no mage would ever sac casting spd for defence (cause you will die equally fast and deal even less damage) or any archer would sack his range (complete insanity). So its useless.

You say you base your balance on 2008 and onward, but what ballance was there? Most of us left in end of summer 2007, cause the mutants aka the exploit you promised to ban, were never banned and became a "must have". And then also the hlapex exploit that killed economy. At least that is how it was on infinity. So 2008 and onward the game was already mutnat-infested so much so I have no idea what kind of standard DNsub balance you want to seek there and learn from. Especially from star-wars lolipop servers like Dragon.

Still the server is doing fine, but some of your nerf decisions are.... very questionable. That is my point.  I mean we are again starting to see the 1/2 shot cristacked archers. And they don't have epic jewels, wait when they do. I thought the whole point was to prevent that. Mages will fallow after few valakases fall. Why not simply.... decrese the effect of any crit dmg active/passive buff to half the effect? And then fine tune the rest of the combos that would be sticking from the line too much up or down? Same with mcrits, decrease the multiplier from 4x to 2x. That would prolong the fights, make the game longer, harder even in PVE and we could even lift the global -25% pvp damage or so.  Sounds reasonable to me.

You do like long and quite nonsense posts, don't you?
For the first time they announced changes in skills BEFORE they started the server, you've known how chars will look 'on paper'. If they change it now people who already subbed will flood the forum with another QQ posts 'wtf I wasted my sub blabla'.

Quote from: Blizzer on March 07, 2014, 09:27:39 AM
You do like long and quite nonsense posts, don't you?
For the first time they announced changes in skills BEFORE they started the server, you've known how chars will look 'on paper'. If they change it now people who already subbed will flood the forum with another QQ posts 'wtf I wasted my sub blabla'.

Exactly.
Anyway the toggle seems extremely manageable right now. no? (Reuse is 1sec)

Quote from: =drake= on March 07, 2014, 09:36:32 AM
Exactly.
Anyway the toggle seems extremely manageable right now. no? (Reuse is 1sec)

Why would they QQ really? We ask for a buff to aggression (they won't QQ for that) and a change to a nerf, for an other nerf that is less invasive on some combo.

Is it manageable? Yes (define manageable would be my real answer). Is it the best we can do to accommodate everyone? No, not at all.

Want to leave deflect arrow like that? Fine. But have the decency of boosting aggression to a point where it actually does something in pvp/vs rb, so we actually see some tanks in the field.

Quote from: Blizzer on March 07, 2014, 09:27:39 AM
You do like long and quite nonsense posts, don't you?
For the first time they announced changes in skills BEFORE they started the server, you've known how chars will look 'on paper'. If they change it now people who already subbed will flood the forum with another QQ posts 'wtf I wasted my sub blabla'.

There is no QQ. I made my choice for the team and I do not regret it. Im just saying why the game is not balanced at all by far when Drake is pretending it is. And why deflect arrow is still useless for any offensive class, thus I have no understanding why the nerf of this skill in particular ever came to be. It was never OP or causing imbalance on the first place. When activating it, it kills your strong point, insert any class there, mage, archer, any, never ever is it worth to active that skill unless you are dedicated to do nothing (aka not attack nor heal anyone) in the duration of it being active.

Same as mages landing silence or anchor 80% of the times to target with all buffs and 2000Mdef while wearing homu +3 is also "fine tuned" I guess. Well its not. People will learn to live with it but that doesn't make it right setting.

Quote from: LadyZENITH on March 07, 2014, 04:35:26 PM
There is no QQ. I made my choice for the team and I do not regret it. Im just saying why the game is not balanced at all by far when Drake is pretending it is. And why deflect arrow is still useless for any offensive class, thus I have no understanding why the nerf of this skill in particular ever came to be. It was never OP or causing imbalance on the first place. When activating it, it kills your strong point, insert any class there, mage, archer, any, never ever is it worth to active that skill unless you are dedicated to do nothing (aka not attack nor heal anyone) in the duration of it being active.

I never said that Deflect ARrow was the strong point or the OP skill.
The nerf is simply there to leave a weak point in a class combination that else have near to none (as is a combo of the two opposite archetypes: tank and dps)

So you say they were OP in some way? I mean deflect arrow sometimes was the thing that made the classes not die on 1-2 hits but actually more from archer. DD/tank was never op. In the days before mutant infestation they were kinda equal to DD/summoner with TP. Now DD/summoner lost none of its potency, none of the nerfs touched it, thus they are really getting a bit OP. Yet the tank combos or tanks in general are "meh". You love your stats so later you can confirm it by observing the results and what people play or sub. Tanks are a total rarity.

Quote from: LadyZENITH on March 07, 2014, 05:22:53 PM
So you say they were OP in some way? I mean deflect arrow sometimes was the thing that made the classes not die on 1-2 hits but actually more from archer. DD/tank was never op. In the days before mutant infestation they were kinda equal to DD/summoner with TP. Now DD/summoner lost none of its potency, none of the nerfs touched it, thus they are really getting a bit OP. Yet the tank combos or tanks in general are "meh". You love your stats so later you can confirm it by observing the results and what people play or sub. Tanks are a total rarity.

yes i know i'm rare ;o
but i agree with you anyway

Quote from: LadyZENITH on March 07, 2014, 05:22:53 PM
So you say they were OP in some way? I mean deflect arrow sometimes was the thing that made the classes not die on 1-2 hits but actually more from archer. DD/tank was never op. In the days before mutant infestation they were kinda equal to DD/summoner with TP. Now DD/summoner lost none of its potency, none of the nerfs touched it, thus they are really getting a bit OP. Yet the tank combos or tanks in general are "meh". You love your stats so later you can confirm it by observing the results and what people play or sub. Tanks are a total rarity.

Updates ad "Now":



QUANTITY:
spectral_dancer/spectral_master = 1
phoenix_knight/arcana_lord = 1
shillien_templar/storm_screamer = 1
shillien_templar/shillien_saint = 1
storm_screamer/shillien_saint = 1
spectral_dancer/ghost_hunter = 1
hell_knight/archmage = 1
shillien_templar/spectral_master = 1
evas_templar/sword_muse = 1
duelist/sagittarius = 1
evas_templar/mystic_muse = 1
duelist/phoenix_knight = 1
phoenix_knight/sagittarius = 1
ghost_hunter/shillien_saint = 1
hell_knight/adventurer = 1
hell_knight/hierophant = 1
soultaker/arcana_lord = 1
sword_muse/wind_rider = 2
hell_knight/cardinal = 2
adventurer/arcana_lord = 2
sword_muse/moonlight_sentinel = 2
arcana_lord/hierophant = 2
grand_khavatari/doomcryer = 3
grand_khavatari/dominator = 3
dreadnought/adventurer = 3
phoenix_knight/cardinal = 3
archmage/hierophant = 3
sagittarius/arcana_lord = 4
archmage/arcana_lord = 4
sagittarius/hierophant = 5
adventurer/hierophant = 5
dreadnought/sagittarius = 5
duelist/hierophant = 5
spectral_dancer/ghost_sentinel = 5
arcana_lord/cardinal = 6
soultaker/hierophant = 6
titan/doomcryer = 7
titan/grand_khavatari = 8
soultaker/cardinal = 8
sword_muse/evas_saint = 10
storm_screamer/spectral_master = 11
spectral_dancer/shillien_saint = 12
sword_muse/mystic_muse = 12
elemental_master/evas_saint = 13
spectral_dancer/storm_screamer = 13
mystic_muse/elemental_master = 15
dominator/doomcryer = 15
mystic_muse/evas_saint = 25

1 Full Tank.

(http://i.imgur.com/kQWV2.gif)

That shows how good tank stance is.

Quote from: Clonage on March 07, 2014, 05:58:03 PM
1 Full Tank.

(http://i.imgur.com/kQWV2.gif)

That shows how good tank stance is.

you're not very bright arent you? full tank subclasses are untouched, only tank/dps combinations are nerfed

Quote from: Alex on March 07, 2014, 06:09:35 PMyou're not very bright arent you? full tank subclasses are untouched, only tank/dps combinations are nerfed

Im not going to repeat myself 3 bilion times, if u want, check my previous posts. Kay?

Quote from: Clonage on March 07, 2014, 06:12:47 PM
Im not going to repeat myself 3 bilion times, if u want, check my previous posts. Kay?

and what makes you think im going to read 20 pages?

i just brought down your senseless post by stating an obvious fact :|

Quote from: Alex on March 07, 2014, 06:09:35 PM
you're not very bright arent you? full tank subclasses are untouched, only tank/dps combinations are nerfed

And... you are supposed to be more intelligent right? First you attack something that you clearly did not think through, to then dumbly tell a lie about it like if it's a fact. Have you played pure tank style my friend? Because without a bow, you won't do shit in pvp. Even with one, we don't do much, but we do something at least. That nerf is affecting full tanks directly. Quick swapping shield + bow is the best way to get close to your enemy while not simply "tanking" the damage. It's an essential part of 1v1 if you don't want to be only kited to death. In mass pvp it's not as useful, but depending on the situation it can be better to use a bow then your shield.

If you think that the opposite is an obvious fact, you either never played pure tank or never faced a good one / a tank geared for pvp. Or you are willingly lying/trolling.

Again, if aggression could lock a target for a time, even a fraction of a second, even if it doesn't force attack, the deflect arrow nerf would not seem so annoying to a full tank in mass pvp (as it would clearly be more interesting to use a shield while your enemy is locked on you then to use a bow, while your team kill your target). And 1 v 1 ? It's ok if tanks can't do shit against anyone in 1v1. Tanks would have a limited use, but at least it would have one. But currently? Using deflect arrow is more of a disadvantage then an advantage if you face more than 1 archer due to aggression. Trying to time aggression perfectly to change your target's target is nearly impossible vs an archer, as most know already, due to the fact that spamming attack return to your previous target/he can just click fast/use commands to switch target before shooting (macros can help a lot in this, if you are unaware of it). It works OK against a mage (a dumb one), but that's it. Even there, macros will own aggression. Macros should be to ease up annoying tasks (buffs), speed up things or reduce your quick bar overload, not render a class obsolete.

And I know how it works in "Official". They also corrected it and it became relatively OP, when even BD and SWS could swap and lock targets. I'm not asking for anything specific post IL buff, but currently, pure tank got no advantage compared to any other subs. Dps/tanks got a wayyy better aggression power (thanks to their higher dps) than any pure tank.

So if we can't aggro and can't attack our targets who outrange us (even more now), why do we have defenses? Only retards will attack us and only when everyone else is dead. This is why deflect arrow/aggression current setup is a nerf to pure tanks.

Ideas about aggression : How about a better aggression power when using blunt/sword and shield? Or a lock target for .3 second while using a shield+ sword/blunt (only in pvp?)? Or make it a tattoo? Chance current Shield Wall tattoo so that it triggers when you use aggression?

Quote from: Chicks on March 07, 2014, 07:47:47 PM
spam

tank damage with bow is laughable and its only going to slow you down if you actually chase someone while trying to demoralize them with ur crazy 600 damage crits from 400 range

to dry a bit all the tank tears in that topic here's an advice: the only playable tank class pre-gracia is IL paladin, so make one or stay useless forever

Quote from: Alex on March 07, 2014, 08:11:13 PM
tank damage with bow is laughable and its only going to slow you down if you actually chase someone while trying to demoralize them with ur crazy 600 damage crits from 400 range

to dry a bit all the tank tears in that topic here's an advice: the only playable tank class pre-gracia is IL paladin, so make one or stay useless forever

yeah, tell this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTPKhpPhNBc
how useless is a bow for a tank.
wts l2 lessons.

Quote from: Garn. on March 07, 2014, 08:37:57 PM
yeah, tell this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTPKhpPhNBc
how useless is a bow for a tank.
wts l2 lessons.

whats the reason for u to link that video except for baiting me into wasting 5 min of my life watching how people f1 each other on official? :<

if u expect ur going to kill with bow sps/ee who cancels you while spamming heal on himself like that guy was killing some helpless spellhowler I have bad news for u

Quote from: Alex on March 07, 2014, 09:06:53 PM
trash talk

No one talked about totally owning anyone, we're talking about dealing some damage while retaining our tankiness. Also, using a bow does slow you down. But it's needed. Slow's? Hex? Roots? When they are on CD, what do we do? LETS WAVE AT THEM!

Also, people only press F1 here too. That's why they think tanks are OP. They are too dumb to understand how tanks are played, so official video or not, it's a non issue.

Also, I don't see the point or your reply to me. Instead of writing "spam", you should read it, because I basically said : Tanks damage with a bow is low, but it's better then waving your hand at the enemy. While arrest/slows/other debuffs are on CD, you won't do much against a kitting archer. What you CAN do, is switch to bow and hit him while spells return from CD.

Wts anger management classes, you seem to need them.

Also, instead of bringing nothing to the debate, you could go out or chill out somewhere. That way you could stop wasting both our time. And the time of those interested in the issue.

Quote from: Alex on March 07, 2014, 06:21:24 PM
and what makes you think im going to read 20 pages?

i just brought down your senseless post by stating an obvious fact :|

yo newbie, you play here? greetz. Puff

@chicks

wanna play full tanks and enjoyed it, go play non substack server elsewhere;
u whined and left years ago, u come back and u continue now....

change class and play with rules of server, or go play where it fits your style, its simple no??

PS: agro skills are enhanced in next chronicle, not in interlude, its NCsoft feature...

Quote from: loXol on March 08, 2014, 12:32:14 AM
@chicks

wanna play full tanks and enjoyed it, go play non substack server elsewhere;
u whined and left years ago, u come back and u continue now....

change class and play with rules of server, or go play where it fits your style, its simple no??

PS: agro skills are enhanced in next chronicle, not in interlude, its NCsoft feature...

Lets all make nuker/tank or wtvr what the most OP class is atm, make a big stand off where everyone have set + rb + wep +20 with SA+best augment + all skills max level.

The last man standing win the game, then everyone leave.

This right there, is as logical in a MMO as what you just told me.

If you only want to play 1 class, make your own private server.

EDIT : You also need to start reading before replying. Same reply as the one to Alex applies to you, with all due respect (and there's none due really, i'm just being polite, since you only try to start a flame war/troll) :

Quote from: Chicks on March 07, 2014, 09:19:05 PM
Also, instead of bringing nothing to the debate, you could go out or chill out somewhere. That way you could stop wasting both our time. And the time of those interested in the issue.

today i learned gangsters also play mmorpgs and they even complain about bad class balance there

Quote from: Alex on March 10, 2014, 07:50:57 PM
today i learned gangsters also play mmorpgs and they even complain about bad class balance there

At this rate, we should reach the Godwin point within 2h.

Ho wait...

Quote from: Alex on March 10, 2014, 07:50:57 PM
today i learned gangsters also play mmorpgs and they even complain about bad class balance there

rofl
hi alex hater ;)

Quote from: TheBlackPhoenix on March 11, 2014, 02:54:18 PM
Today i learned that if i make a  topic asking for something, after 22 pages i will get it

Not in DrakeNetwork.

Quote from: TheBlackPhoenix on March 11, 2014, 02:54:18 PM
Today i learned that if i make a  topic asking for something, after 22 pages i will get it

Many thought same, but they didn't get it.

Quote from: TheBlackPhoenix on March 11, 2014, 02:54:18 PM
Today i learned that if i make a  topic asking for something, after 22 pages i will get it

Nop. Still can try doe. Only retards stop fighting for what they believe in.

Just out of curiosity, how is aggro now?

If by pure hate/aggression you cant manage and adding the tattoo is not enough... dont forget there is augmentation DEDICATED for it too for maximum aggro (and the augmentation is official and exists for this reason too)

Quote from: =drake= on March 11, 2014, 06:54:35 PM
Just out of curiosity, how is aggro now?

If by pure hate/aggression you cant manage and adding the tattoo is not enough... dont forget there is augmentation DEDICATED for it too for maximum aggro (and the augmentation is official and exists for this reason too)

didn't test it yet, i'll let you know

Quote from: =drake= on March 11, 2014, 06:54:35 PM
Just out of curiosity, how is aggro now?

If by pure hate/aggression you cant manage and adding the tattoo is not enough... dont forget there is augmentation DEDICATED for it too for maximum aggro (and the augmentation is 100% official and exists for this reason)

Forgot to add:
dont forget to tell to your DPS friends to always control their DPS:
-All DPS classes have dedicated skills for Aggro control (avoid use aggro randomizers, else 100% you screw up the tank)
-Exists dedicated Augmentation for reduce aggro called CHARM (active/trigger/critical) to reduce aggro additionally

I know many DPS players likes to pewpew and dont care for the aggro but aggro management (and the two things i just mentioned) makes the difference from "big numbers and getting wiped" vs a "slightly less big numbers and successful raid"

Quote from: =drake= on March 11, 2014, 06:54:35 PM
Just out of curiosity, how is aggro now?

If by pure hate/aggression you cant manage and adding the tattoo is not enough... dont forget there is augmentation DEDICATED for it too for maximum aggro (and the augmentation is official and exists for this reason too)

As I stated before, to keep the hate up against your nukers/archers/healers, you can't hit more than once or twice between each aggressions (basically the CD time of aggression), otherwise you won't keep the aggression (because you are pure tank and your damage/attack speed is laughable remember?), making the tattoo near useless, as opposed to most DD tattoos. Simply making aggression trigger the tattoo would help a whole lot vs RB's and group of mobs.

Right now, the tattoo is not helping much/making much sense due to the way it's made to work. It's ok for high attack speed tanks I guess... which is not logical to the tank role per say. We should have low damage and high defense, not the opposite.

Is the boost supposed to work also in PvP(better chance to force target)?

Quote from: Clonage on March 11, 2014, 09:20:52 PM
Is the boost supposed to work also in PvP(better chance to force target)?

furthermore, what is the time/impact of such force target? Is it a force attack or a target lock?

Quote from: Chicks on March 11, 2014, 09:56:24 PMfurthermore, what is the time/impact of such force target? Is it a force attack or a target lock?

There's no timer, you can switch target immediately... On interlude you dont have target lock. And from what i've seen neither force attack on 1st try lol, you always need to at least agro 2 times for someone to attack you. Force target rate feels kinda arround 70% which is low taking the fact that you cant force attack at 1st try
For example: Someone can just press ESC or switch target and they will never force attack you. And not having a chance to Force attack at 1st try is bad for PvP.

My question was: Is the chance in PvP force target boosted?

Quote from: Clonage on March 11, 2014, 10:29:50 PM
My question was: Is the chance in PvP force target boosted?

Is raised the aggro gained, not the chances to force the target.
By default is 40%, enchanting raises it. (Augmentation and Tattoo have max 40%)

Quote from: Chicks on March 11, 2014, 09:02:53 PM
As I stated before, to keep the hate up against your nukers/archers/healers, you can't hit more than once or twice between each aggressions (basically the CD time of aggression), otherwise you won't keep the aggression (because you are pure tank and your damage/attack speed is laughable remember?), making the tattoo near useless, as opposed to most DD tattoos. Simply making aggression trigger the tattoo would help a whole lot vs RB's and group of mobs.

Right now, the tattoo is not helping much/making much sense due to the way it's made to work. It's ok for high attack speed tanks I guess... which is not logical to the tank role per say. We should have low damage and high defense, not the opposite.

I stated also that there is the Augmentation, no one cares to remember it :)

Augmentation is like an extra Aggression as it have same reuse and same effect as of max lvl Aggression enchanted to +0
The TRIGGER augmentation on normal hits have 10% to trigger, on criticals have 20% to trigger.
The tattoo, max leveled, have (aggro related) identical effect to the augmentation and triggers at 10% rate on normal hits.
(the boosts on shield def and rate is straight passive)

If you combine Aggression+Tattoo+Augmentation, i doubt you can have any issues to keep aggro (or even force attack).

Quote from: =drake= on March 12, 2014, 12:46:54 AM
Is raised the aggro gained, not the chances to force the target.
By default is 40%, enchanting raises it. (Augmentation and Tattoo have max 40%)

Wtf? With Tattos autos can force target in PvP?

Quote from: Clonage on March 12, 2014, 12:59:19 AM
Wtf? With Tattos autos can force target in PvP?

What you mean?
All the following skills can force target to self (for an instant). If target is already "self", it triggers a forced autoattack:

-Aggression
-Hate Aura
-Augmentation of Aggression (any)
-Tattoo of Wall

Imagine im a Pala, if i start to auto attack someone flagged(or with war) while Tatto is equiped, i have x%(depending on Tatto level) to make him force target me?
This is actually good on paper but not compared to other tattos D: (PvP)

I had no ideia agro was that weak in PvP, 40% .. Such a weak Crowd control... The probability to make someone force attack you on 2nd Aggro is 20% :/. If Aggro could force attack on 1st try even with low rate it would be alot more viable.

Also, can you provide the inscresed % for each enchantement level on Aggression/Aura Hate?

Is +1% each +1

hmm ok thx.

Quote from: Clonage on March 12, 2014, 01:30:37 AM
Imagine im a Pala, if i start to auto attack someone flagged(or with war) while Tatto is equiped, i have x%(depending on Tatto level) to make him force target me?
This is actually good on paper but not compared to other tattos D: (PvP)

Dont forget that the tattoo is shining when you combine it with a shield and other shield masteries/skills.
Did you compared the damage reduction and shield trigger rate with/without tattoo?
Lv4 tattoo is extremely amazing and empowered tattoo is maybe one of best tattoos a tank could use against other fighters: is nearly comparable to have a passive physical UD.

Quote from: Clonage on March 11, 2014, 10:29:50 PM
There's no timer, you can switch target immediately... On interlude you dont have target lock. And from what i've seen neither force attack on 1st try lol, you always need to at least agro 2 times for someone to attack you. Force target rate feels kinda arround 70% which is low taking the fact that you cant force attack at 1st try
For example: Someone can just press ESC or switch target and they will never force attack you. And not having a chance to Force attack at 1st try is bad for PvP.

My question was: Is the chance in PvP force target boosted?

if it actually is the case, I refers to my previous comments : escape, macros, simply using attack, clicking. All those thing will cancel/switch the target and thus render aggression totally useless to any player that is remotely aware of it's surrounding.

Quote from: =drake= on March 12, 2014, 12:46:54 AM
Is raised the aggro gained, not the chances to force the target.
By default is 40%, enchanting raises it. (Augmentation and Tattoo have max 40%)

I stated also that there is the Augmentation, no one cares to remember it :)

Augmentation is like an extra Aggression as it have same reuse and same effect as of max lvl Aggression enchanted to +0
The TRIGGER augmentation on normal hits have 10% to trigger, on criticals have 20% to trigger.
The tattoo, max leveled, have (aggro related) identical effect to the augmentation and triggers at 10% rate on normal hits.
(the boosts on shield def and rate is straight passive)

If you combine Aggression+Tattoo+Augmentation, i doubt you can have any issues to keep aggro (or even force attack).

Augmentation is a farly "late game" asset (considering it cost a lot/is rare, getting that enchant is based on luck only, etc). I'm talking general here.

I did not ignore it, but it's irrelevant to any tank below lvl 76 or so. Same goes for spell enchant. I understand that your friends (talking PVE here, as  it doesn't change much for pvp) shouldn't have them neither in that case, but we cannot consider only the late game situation in a medium rate server to base our analysis of the situation of all/most tanks in the game. Imho at least.

And if aggression has no locked target feature, boosting shield defense/rate is useless too, as no one (talking about non retarded humans here) hit a tank willingly. Even if you succeed to aggro for the second time (thus forcing attack), nothing stop that player to just click with his mouse anywhere in his view (outside the tank) to render aggression utterly useless.

The tattoo can be "usefull" in pvp, up to some extend, but is extremely undermined by any other tattoo. Making the tattoo trigger on aggression will create a force attack, making aggression slightly more viable in pvp and pve. Right now, aggression in pvp is basically a mana sink and for rb the tattoo is useless as you need to spam aggression (so no time to properly auto attack, making the 10% landing rate laughable) other wise you either loose the rb or it takes 1h or more to kill it.

Mate, how do you not understand the bottom line that admin's are trying to put across?

Tanks have never been useful in PvP in Interlude. End of. The GMs are giving you a chance to be useful by getting ALL the end game stuff (tattoo, augment, etc) and then you can help your friends frack shit up.

Until then, go tank RBs and spam aggression. That's what a tank does and has always done. If you get ignored in PvP, spam the shield-stun out of them, debuff/arrest/whatever you have, and do a bit of damage - as you CAN when you are getting ignored. Pull out a good 2 hander and bash them on the head. That's it.

Jeeeeezus, all this spam in this damn topic

Quote from: silent_death on March 13, 2014, 02:01:41 PM
Mate, how do you not understand the bottom line that admin's are trying to put across?

Tanks have never been useful in PvP in Interlude. End of. The GMs are giving you a chance to be useful by getting ALL the end game stuff (tattoo, augment, etc) and then you can help your friends frack shit up.

Until then, go tank RBs and spam aggression. That's what a tank does and has always done. If you get ignored in PvP, spam the shield-stun out of them, debuff/arrest/whatever you have, and do a bit of damage - as you CAN when you are getting ignored. Pull out a good 2 hander and bash them on the head. That's it.

Jeeeeezus, all this spam in this damn topic

You missed half the subject about aggression. The other half is that the tattoo is near useless and augment is not available to lower lvl tanks (who actually exist). That and over all aggression is not very strong against a RB. You can't boost hate modifier in the same what that you can for normal spells/damage (no crits, no buffs, etc etc). This means that reducing aggression is not as usefull as attacking is (so it's not necessarily 1 for 1) and that hate don't scale like nukers/archers does (again, it's not necessarily 1 for 1).

Now I have not tested everything, but this is my observations so far. If anyone care to debunk it, have fun I'd be happy to be wrong if you got solid proof

And about the 2h : yeah, thats why I said the deflect arrow nerf when we use a bow is a problem... Using a 2H (without vanguard, which is not a IL feature)/or a pole is not very efficient compared to a bow, thus like half of the thread.
Thanks for your input anyway...

Quote from: =drake= on March 11, 2014, 07:01:29 PM
Forgot to add:
dont forget to tell to your DPS friends to always control their DPS:
-All DPS classes have dedicated skills for Aggro control (avoid use aggro randomizers, else 100% you screw up the tank)
-Exists dedicated Augmentation for reduce aggro called CHARM (active/trigger/critical) to reduce aggro additionally

I know many DPS players likes to pewpew and dont care for the aggro but aggro management (and the two things i just mentioned) makes the difference from "big numbers and getting wiped" vs a "slightly less big numbers and successful raid"

Sometimes i really wonder if you ever played L2... And BTW, the buffers have the aggro lowering skills, most of the damage dealers don't have...

well drake could you at lest disable the toggle mana consumption on deflect arrow, and make it like holy armor and aegis Stance?
so at lest we wont have to toggle it on/off everytime we fight a mob using bow too.

Quote from: unhandledexeption on March 14, 2014, 12:13:12 AM
Sometimes i really wonder if you ever played L2... And BTW, the buffers have the aggro lowering skills, most of the damage dealers don't have...

I think he mean enchant to reduce aggression? I don't know every enchant of every skills, so maybe thats what he's been talking about. I think, at least all elf fighter got charm, but what about the others? I don't recall any on DE fighters, same for most mages (outside buffers/healers. I think bishop got 1 but for undead only no?)

EDIT : Confirmed that the only hate reducing skill available are for elfs. The rest is target canceling/switching (according to official). So thats stuff that freaks the tank up more than anything else.

Anyway considering the update it will be interesting to test aggression now, not that it change anything to the tattoo being useless (in term of aggression usefulness), but if aggression per say works well, maybe it can bypass that issue. I will try to test it on sunday when I get back home.

I don't understand why are these nerfs needed... if you want to modify the game, look at the archer balance where there are real problems:
-hawkeye have the highest attack speed, as it have "boost attack speed" passive (SR, PR, don't)
-hawkeye can have the same crit rate as the SR, and same crit power as the PR, as while SR have only "critical chance" passive, PR only have the "critical power", hawkeye have BOTH.
-hawkeye have the most HP and CP, and the most headroom for dye-ing.
-hawkeye have the highest weight limit cuz of it's passive skill (quiver of holding?!).
-hawkeye have two special skills (hawkeye, snipe), while PR only have dead eye, and SR have the PVE only rapid fire (it's useless in pvp, as it lowers the range to 500)
Yes it's retail, but still really unfair, and retail doesn't mean that it's good, see the newer retarded chronicles. While the nukers really have the balance.

Everyone who want archer, makes hawkeye. PR and SRs are mostly made, by subbing BD, or SWS to them.

Quote from: unhandledexeption on March 15, 2014, 04:00:21 PM
-hawkeye have the highest attack speed,the same crit rate as the SR, and same crit power as the PR, while PR only have dead eye; PR mostly made, by subbing BD,

wow high lvl of l2 knowledge here....

So did someone test the Aggro using tank skills + tattoo + augm?

Quote from: unhandledexeption on March 15, 2014, 04:00:21 PM
I don't understand why are these nerfs needed... if you want to modify the game, look at the archer balance where there are real problems:
-hawkeye have the highest attack speed, as it have "boost attack speed" passive (SR, PR, don't)
-hawkeye can have the same crit rate as the SR, and same crit power as the PR, as while SR have only "critical chance" passive, PR only have the "critical power", hawkeye have BOTH.
-hawkeye have the most HP and CP, and the most headroom for dye-ing.
-hawkeye have the highest weight limit cuz of it's passive skill (quiver of holding?!).
-hawkeye have two special skills (hawkeye, snipe), while PR only have dead eye, and SR have the PVE only rapid fire (it's useless in pvp, as it lowers the range to 500)
Yes it's retail, but still really unfair, and retail doesn't mean that it's good, see the newer retarded chronicles. While the nukers really have the balance.

Everyone who want archer, makes hawkeye. PR and SRs are mostly made, by subbing BD, or SWS to them.

TROLOLOLOL WTF DID I JUST READ

You never played on a high rate PvP server I'm guessing

Quote from: loXol on March 16, 2014, 01:05:37 AM
wow high lvl of l2 knowledge here....

Yes there is. See? You couldn't disprove me :) (which is impossible of course, cuz i'm right as i talking about facts and not beliefs ;) ).

Quote from: silent_death on March 16, 2014, 11:30:23 AM
TROLOLOLOL WTF DID I JUST READ

You never played on a high rate PvP server I'm guessing

Not much... i've mostly (mass)pvpd on low rates. But this isn't matter,  the passives aren't depend on rates... Perhaps you mixing up the chronicles? Maybe on newer chronicles the SR and PR really meets with the beliefs (SR has fastest atk speed, PR shoots the biggest), but not in interlude.

Quote from: unhandledexeption on March 16, 2014, 02:06:12 PM
Yes there is. See? You couldn't disprove me :) (which is impossible of course, cuz i'm right as i talking about facts and not beliefs ;) ).

Not much... i've mostly (mass)pvpd on low rates. But this isn't matter,  the passives aren't depend on rates... Perhaps you mixing up the chronicles? Maybe on newer chronicles the SR and PR really meets with the beliefs (SR has fastest atk speed, PR shoots the biggest), but not in interlude.

Let me summarise for you (I've only ever played archer, in mostly archer clans).

PR - hardest hitter, overall end game highest damage output. very squishy, the glass cannon
SR - fastest hitter, highest crit rate, relatively low crit dmg/p,atk. best unbuffed run speed.
HE - highest damage mitigation due to extra con. Higher p.atk than SR, but lower in all other factors. The only thing it has going for it otehr than the CON is the Dash skill.

I don't know what you look for when playing an archer (and 90% of the people of this server, which actually makes me very happy), But tankiness isn't something I personally look for. I wanna drop some mofos, and I wanna drop em fast.

For your refernce, please visit the following page and study it carefully:

http://lineage.pmfun.com/list/stat

AND/or create an account on Drake's favourite L2html Zimbabwe x9000, study the stats carefully, and hit a few times to see the difference in dps (and most important, crit damage) output.

Quote from: silent_death on March 16, 2014, 02:34:45 PM
Let me summarise for you (I've only ever played archer, in mostly archer clans).

PR - hardest hitter, overall end game highest damage output. very squishy, the glass cannon
SR - fastest hitter, highest crit rate, relatively low crit dmg/p,atk. best unbuffed run speed.
HE - highest damage mitigation due to extra con. Higher p.atk than SR, but lower in all other factors. The only thing it has going for it otehr than the CON is the Dash skill.

I don't know what you look for when playing an archer (and 90% of the people of this server, which actually makes me very happy), But tankiness isn't something I personally look for. I wanna drop some mofos, and I wanna drop em fast.

For your refernce, please visit the following page and study it carefully:

http://lineage.pmfun.com/list/stat

AND/or create an account on Drake's favourite L2html Zimbabwe x9000, study the stats carefully, and hit a few times to see the difference in dps (and most important, crit damage) output.

Yes these are the false beliefs that i wrote about, when people only looking at the base stats.
You would be right if only the stats would decide, but you aren't, as there are things that called as  "passive skill"s have much higher effect than the stats.
That's why the HE is the fastest in attack speed (it's the only archer that have "Boost attack speed" passive, which makes them faster than the SR), and have the same crit rate as the SR ("critical chance" passive), and the same crit power as the PR ("critical power" passive).
PR only have higher damage, if the dead eye is on, else it will have nearly the same(negligible difference) as the hawkeye. SR only have higher atk speed if the rapid fire is on, but that 50% range penalty makes it useless in pvp.

SR vs HE skill differences (http://lineage.pmfun.com/?action=list&what=skillcompare&button=Show&c1=24&c2=9&hide=on&x=17&y=11)
PR vs HE (http://lineage.pmfun.com/?action=list&what=skillcompare&button=Show&c1=37&c2=9&hide=on&x=31&y=12)

And there is some nice calculators too, see here: http://l2calc.narod.ru (http://l2calc.narod.ru) (of try setting level to max 79, as the higher level skills are not exist in interlude)
How many selfbuffs a class have doesn't really matters, as an archer party usually moving in full buff, with WC, BP, SWS, BD, and for farming nearly everyone have a dualbox PP

Quote from: unhandledexeption on March 16, 2014, 03:02:22 PM
Yes these are the false beliefs that i wrote about, when people only looking at the base stats.
You would be right if only the stats would decide, but you aren't, as there are things that called as  "passive skill"s have much higher effect than the stats.
That's why the HE is the fastest in attack speed (it's the only archer that have "Boost attack speed" passive, which makes them faster than the SR), and have the same crit rate as the SR ("critical chance" passive), and the same crit power as the PR ("critical power" passive).
PR only have higher damage, if the dead eye is on, else it will have nearly the same(negligible difference) as the hawkeye. SR only have higher atk speed if the rapid fire is on, but that 50% range penalty makes it useless in pvp.

SR vs HE skill differences (http://lineage.pmfun.com/?action=list&what=skillcompare&button=Show&c1=24&c2=9&hide=on&x=17&y=11)
PR vs HE (http://lineage.pmfun.com/?action=list&what=skillcompare&button=Show&c1=37&c2=9&hide=on&x=31&y=12)

And there is some nice calculators too, see here: http://l2calc.narod.ru (http://l2calc.narod.ru) (of try setting level to max 79, as the higher level skills are not exist in interlude)
How many selfbuffs a class have doesn't really matters, as an archer party usually moving in full buff, with WC, BP, SWS, BD, and for farming nearly everyone have a dualbox PP

Believe what you want mate. I used to too. On paper those passives look very attractive, in reality they give a boost based on the BASE STATS, just cos it has them doesn't mean it makes the attack speed the fastest.

I told you, make the chars on a different server, full buff yourself, and test it out. I have.

That calculator (as any calculator would be) is useless for Archrs.

Why?

Because we rely on Crit damage and the alt+T stats do not show it.

Quote from: silent_death on March 16, 2014, 03:30:58 PM
Believe what you want mate. I used to too. On paper those passives look very attractive, in reality they give a boost based on the BASE STATS, just cos it has them doesn't mean it makes the attack speed the fastest.

I told you, make the chars on a different server, full buff yourself, and test it out. I have.

I beleive in facts, and what i've seen. I don't need now a char on high rate(BTW there is no interlude high rate for now) , and there is the calculator that tells how does it looks like. If the passives depend on base stats, that doesn't matters, as there is no big difference in dex, only in con. And there is 1 str difference between delf and human fighter(before using dyes).
If played years as hawkeye in c4 and IL, with my CP where the SR/sws and the PR/BD who played years with these, told the same as you can see from stats, passives, and the calculator. HE is the fastest in atk speed, have nearly equal crit rate as SR, same crit power as PR, and much higher HP than others. SR is better in only one thing, that have the highest standard running speed(due to a passive), however hawkeye have the dash, which make it faster for 10 seconds.
Anyway: HE have all of the important passives that SR and PR have, while SR and PR don't have all.

Crit damage is depends on patk+ crit power buffs+ crit power passives+ boss jewels (AQ+Baium). Hawkeye have the same crit power passive as the PR, SR doesn't have such passive, and they can have the same active buffs. It's not so complicated, it's easy to tell what can you expect ingame, even if it's not written out as a number.

I honestly can't be bothered to keep this conversation going, I told you this is something I've tested in game, in Interlude, with friends on pvp servers (full 2hrs buff etc)

Instead of going around in circles like people have done in the last 10 years, just read these through and make your own mind up. This has all been discussed and re-discussed in forums.

http://boards.lineage2.com/showthread.php?t=200973

http://forum.pmfun.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=991&start=75


Peace out.

Can the topic go back to Tanks or it was an Archer's Cry from the beginning?

SR also has more dodge and accuracy as stock. HE is simply balanced between PR and SR and has (imo) the best possible subs, which is why it's probably the most played archer.

Especially now that deflect arrow is what it is and

Quote from: =drake= on March 16, 2014, 04:57:11 PM
Can the topic go back to Tanks or it was an Archer's Cry from the beginning?

I couldn't test my tank since I sold my wep and i'm off the tank class until it stabilise. I could get a shadow B wep to test it on my TK tonight if noone does before me.
I did use a BD (low lvl, 66) vs high lvl mobs (varka captain so 76-80 or so) (was supporting with the BD, aggroing for the fun of it)

What I did notice is that Aggro seemed a little bit OP on normal high lvl mobs (but I did not use it a LOT). 1 aggression was almost = to 2 nerco nuke lvl 78 or so, for a BD. It may be just luck, but it struck me as weird that it was working so hard at that lvl (BD having like aggro lvl 13 or so?).

In short for aggression : I cannot say anything conclusive on the subject.

I also noticed that Deflect arrow now drain mana (at least on the BD). If this is to stay, I can garantee 100% that I won't see any use to it in pvp/PVE vs archer mobs. Guard stance and shield fortress already drain wayyy too many mana (not complaining on those 2 skills here, don't get me wrong) to allow for an extra mana sink. Also, it still has a casting time, just like the old spell, but it's a toggle (that point was reported here previously by someone else.

didnt test aggression yet since im clanless and exping solo right now

Aggro Feels better vs mobs, still sucks in pvp. Not worth using the tatto for trains, atleast for agro purpose....

Quote from: Clonage on March 18, 2014, 10:40:14 AM
Aggro Feels better vs mobs, still sucks in pvp. Not worth using the tatto for trains, atleast for agro purpose....

I think it will suck in pvp for ever/till this server switch chronicle.

The tattoo though... ugh...

Quote from: Chicks on March 18, 2014, 02:09:30 PM
I think it will suck in pvp for ever/till this server switch chronicle.

The tattoo though... ugh...

yup retail like aggro sucks donki ballz. Most server have it balance with more chance and force attack on 1st try(sometimes). I've played Tank for years on "L2off" interlude private servers and it was nothing compared to this. I was hero multiple times. Specially Frintezza 15x Substack. Im not saying that this server is not l2off, i actually believe this is more l2off then any other interlude i played, but the experiece playing as a tank is so different. Tank style doesnt feel viable in PvP.  The tatto is not relliable for pvp, atleast right now, 2 much mages. Even tho tanks can block projectiles...

Quote from: Clonage on March 18, 2014, 03:08:15 PM
yup retail like aggro sucks donki ballz. Most server have it balance with more chance and force attack on 1st try(sometimes).

Tarantula Aggro skills (all of them, from tank specific skills to augment and tattoos) have +30% more pve aggro than official.
Additionally all those skills (for class skills, only the levels over 40 (so: tank), this means this rule does not affect for example the early Aggression obtained from Palus Knight ) all the aggression skills have from 15 to 25% chances to force an autoattack. (beside the switch target, that is from 40 to 70% depends by the skill. (Class Aggression skill have 70% switch target))

I dont really see more boost to be given here on Tanks...

Thx for the buffs. I did say its better.  Does the force attack % apply only after switch target?
I tested it some weeks ago and i never got force attack on 1st try aggro.
Was it changed meanwhile?? How does the value go from 40 to 70?? nvm i got it... Skill +30 :D

Quote from: Clonage on March 18, 2014, 04:04:48 PM
Thx for the buffs. I did say its better.  Does the force attack % apply only after switch target?
I tested it some weeks ago and i never got force attack on 1st try aggro.
Was it changed meanwhile?? How does the value go from 40 to 70?? nvm i got it... Skill +30 :D

Wrong, the +30 in Aggression gives you outstanding 100% switch target.

40% is base switch target for Hate Aura (enchant raises it +1% every +1)
60% is for Augmentation and Tattoo
70% is base switch target for Aggression (enchant raises it +1% every +1)

The force autoattack happen always if a "switch target" is triggered when they already target you.
If they are not targeting you yet, the force autoattack CAN happen as a fraction of the base switch target rate. (is 40% of it).

Example:
Aggression: 70% base switch target chance

if he dont have you as target:
70% chances he targets you
0.7*0.4=0.28=28% chances that you gain target AND autoattack too

if he have you as target:
70% chances he autoattacks you

Quote from: =drake= on March 18, 2014, 04:40:29 PM
Wrong, the +30 in Aggression gives you outstanding 100% switch target.

40% is base switch target for Hate Aura (enchant raises it +1% every +1)
60% is for Augmentation and Tattoo
70% is base switch target for Aggression (enchant raises it +1% every +1)

The force autoattack happen always if a "switch target" is triggered when they already target you.
If they are not targeting you yet, the force autoattack CAN happen as a fraction of the base switch target rate. (is 40% of it).

Example:
Aggression: 70% base switch target chance

if he dont have you as target:
70% chances he targets you
0.7*0.4=0.28=28% chances that you gain target AND autoattack too

if he have you as target:
70% chances he autoattacks you

To me, the mana cost of Deflect arrow and the fact that shield wall is useless are more of a concern than a force attack.

Current deflect arrow cost is just a trade off from the 2 min "buff". If it could be made to work like Holy armor, for exemple (or holy wep), it would be better. No casting animation and only activation cost.

Shield wall well... Tbh the whole aggression thingy is pretty useless, as many of us stated plenty of times, while it seem to be ignored.

Aggression currently is doing fine I think, as the boost compensate for crits damage and the lack of hate reduction spells on some classes (read most classes).

Quote from: Chicks on March 18, 2014, 05:37:29 PM
Shield wall well... Tbh the whole aggression thingy is pretty useless, as many of us stated plenty of times, while it seem to be ignored.

Is called "Tattoo of Wall", not "Tattoo of Aggro".
The main characteristics of this tattoo is the outstanding shield defence. The added aggro is just an extra.

Quote from: =drake= on March 18, 2014, 06:30:19 PM
Is called "Tattoo of Wall", not "Tattoo of Aggro".
The main characteristics of this tattoo is the outstanding shield defence. The added aggro is just an extra.

Yet you brought it as a good tattoo for making RB... Thus my argument that under that optic, it's not as good as you seem to think it is. I guess we'll have to see how it works out with the boosted aggression, but I doubt much will change regarding that tattoo. Tanks will still only attack once or twice. If I want more shield pdef/rate, I'd get a mana tattoo to keep my toggles up longer. If I want more overall defense, Giant (or wtvr the HP tattoo) to trigger FF "sooner" and for longer.

Frankly I don't see the purpose of that tattoo for most situation.

Quote from: Chicks on March 18, 2014, 07:45:48 PM
Yet you brought it as a good tattoo for making RB... Thus my argument that under that optic, it's not as good as you seem to think it is. I guess we'll have to see how it works out with the boosted aggression, but I doubt much will change regarding that tattoo. Tanks will still only attack once or twice. If I want more shield pdef/rate, I'd get a mana tattoo to keep my toggles up longer. If I want more overall defense, Giant (or wtvr the HP tattoo) to trigger FF "sooner" and for longer.

Frankly I don't see the purpose of that tattoo for most situation.

Have you tried it beyond lv2?
At lv4e, when maximized, when used in conjunction with tank shield skills you basically have 100% parry rate and physical damage received is reduced by nearly 75% (virtually is like having 75% more hp)

The Tattoo +HP doesnt cover up so much physical damage mitigation like the Tattoo of Wall does.
Of course against magic attacks is another thing but Tattoo of Wall is meant against physical attacks.

Note:
Just as info, relationship between tattoos' level and players' level:
lv1 = lv20 chars
lv2 = lv40 chars
lv3 = lv60 chars
lv4 = lv70 chars
lv4e = lv76 chars

and where 80% of server is mage, it's really useful.

Quote from: Garn. on March 18, 2014, 08:05:58 PM
and where 80% of server is mage, it's really useful.

You have other tattoos for that.
MDEF tattoo or the explained +HP tattoo...

Quote from: =drake= on March 18, 2014, 08:07:30 PM
You have other tattoos for that.
MDEF tattoo or the explained +HP tattoo...

This is all relative to your class/stats I guess...

I'd also have to understand exactly what advanced block give, how to achieve exceptional/perfect block (what influence it, mainly), if that's even in IL... Because if it's in IL (which I doubt), it may be cool to have that tattoo, mixed with something else to boost perfect block rate... after all, a crit-to-be that do 1 damage is always nice :P.

Quote from: =drake= on March 18, 2014, 08:07:30 PM

i prefer when u you ignore cryers replies.
i just wait the nerfs, when sub tanks/xx will take advantges of your fixes for full tank sub( 0.1% of server)...

just tested aggression in pvp.
same as before = totally useless.
spammed aggro with almost 1k atk speed, he didnt change target not even once.

Quote from: Garn. on March 19, 2014, 12:11:55 AM
just tested aggression in pvp.
same as before = totally useless.
spammed aggro with almost 1k atk speed, he didnt change target not even once.

funny cos when i was testing it with friend on bishop/tank, like every 2nd/3rd agro i got his target and like 1:5-6 i was chasing him cos of agro.

Quote from: Peorexo on March 19, 2014, 10:47:58 AM
funny cos when i was testing it with friend on bishop/tank, like every 2nd/3rd agro i got his target and like 1:5-6 i was chasing him cos of agro.

used more than 1k mana on aggression, never changed target.

So em. Yeah. Deflect arrow toggle was consuming mana like crazy and had animation. Anything about that?

Quote from: Chicks on March 21, 2014, 05:54:23 PM
So em. Yeah. Deflect arrow toggle was consuming mana like crazy and had animation. Anything about that?

Quote from: BRANDEN on March 14, 2014, 04:20:12 AM
well drake could you at lest disable the toggle mana consumption on deflect arrow, and make it like holy armor and aegis Stance?
so at lest we wont have to toggle it on/off everytime we fight a mob using bow too.

meh i tried too but no answer.

Quote from: BRANDEN on March 22, 2014, 12:37:22 AM
meh i tried too but no answer.

Yeah I saw your post but couldn't assert your claim. AFAIK, it has a mana cost thats is relatively low. It seem to drink 100% of my tank's mana regen, which makes it look like everything is fine at first, but you just never regen mana.

I noticed an important difference with a BD (so not a high lvl deflect arrow), where the mana consumption was pretty high.

We have done more tests on our side.
See changelog for upcoming changes in Deflect Arrow.

Quote from: =drake= on March 22, 2014, 03:48:28 PM
We have done more tests on our side.
See changelog for upcoming changes in Deflect Arrow.

honestly i don't see why the need for mp consumption on the toggle, the mp consumption not so big to hinder a tank during pvp but it keeps us from keeping it on at all time during farming..etc like holy armor/weapon.
the mp consumption is just there to annoy us with no real reason, i understand nerfing the effect to balance but why it drain mana too???!!!

Quote from: BRANDEN on March 22, 2014, 06:11:01 PM
the mp consumption is just there to annoy us with no real reason, i understand nerfing the effect to balance but why it drain mana too???!!!

Because they cant cancel it out from you.

but archers doesn't have cancel...unless its archer/nuker which would be weird.
and before you made it a toggle even if it were to get canceled it could be insta casted again, so i still don't see a good reason for it.

Quote from: BRANDEN on March 22, 2014, 06:11:01 PM
honestly i don't see why the need for mp consumption on the toggle, the mp consumption not so big to hinder a tank during pvp but it keeps us from keeping it on at all time during farming..etc like holy armor/weapon.
the mp consumption is just there to annoy us with no real reason, i understand nerfing the effect to balance but why it drain mana too???!!!

Depending on your class it IS a big issue. My tk is mana hungry in pvp with aggression spamming + guard stance + shield forteresse (and in some cases some 3rd class toggles too, fortitude if I recall the name.) Combined with deflect arrow it's just not worth using it. The gain I get from all other spells for even a short duration (30 sec for exemple) greatly overcome the gain I would get from keeping deflect arrow up, simply because deflect arrow is specific to archers while guard stance/shield fort is useful against all figthers, archers included.

I guess we'll wait for the actual mana consumption of the change, as the rule is not listed (or I missed it) before criticizing too much, but on paper it's ok. It does help tank/daggers or tank/duals, but still does nothing to full tank setup (not that I expect much love in that aspect, but just saying).

Quote from: Chicks on March 24, 2014, 06:07:39 PM
I guess we'll wait for the actual mana consumption of the change, as the rule is not listed (or I missed it) before criticizing too much, but on paper it's ok. It does help tank/daggers or tank/duals, but still does nothing to full tank setup (not that I expect much love in that aspect, but just saying).

But for your point of view what is the pure tank setup beside an unsubclassed tank?

Quote from: =drake= on March 24, 2014, 06:48:22 PM
But for your point of view what is the pure tank setup beside an unsubclassed tank?

a tank using, MAINLY BUT NOT EXCLUSIVELY, a blunt/sword as main weapon. Switching to bow/pole when needed (pvp mainly, pole can be used to farm faster too). Tank/glad, tank/WL, tank/summoner, tank/healer (as figther with Acu wep, seen it before), tk/sws (I guess SK/BD could work too but it's not optimal. At all) and lastly, DA/PAL. This is the general vision I have of a pure tank.

For my previous post, regarding having all toggles on, read it as : a tank oriented in defensive capabilities, not offensive, for mass pvp (siege mainly)/RB.